A Responsible Discussion on Ray Franz's Role in the Lives of Former JW's

Since it was learned that Ray Franz went to the hospital and then passed away, most threads have in my opinion, correctly tried to give some honor and respect to a courageous, honest, and principled man.

Some borderline trolls, who know many former JW's are easily upset (and they know this. I know this...) try to take advantage by hitting on a hot button. In this case, its to call you a follower of Ray Franz.

We all know that isn't true.

But I think that a legitimate discussion on this is in order. Is there any truth to that? Why or why not?

What were the real ramifications for you as an individual and for the JW organization (esp the leadership) due to Franz leaving and writing his two books?

One more thing: I have no problem if you are a person who genuinely feels that former JW's somehow either follow him or pay "too much respect." (don't know how you can give a good man too much respect, but whatever) And if you feel the threads on this or other forums upset you, say so.

But have some class. Do so respectfully. And better yet, rather then just say you are upset, why don't you say why? How you think things should be.

I won't tolerate on this thread anyone who tries to be a classless hack. If you have something to say, bring it. If you are here to insult grateful people, go somewhere else in your parents basement and watch TV.

Anyway, feel free to discuss if you want. I will start by saying that overall, I have felt that the expressions have been heartfelt and were directed at a very unique, honest, good man. I don't sense worshipful adoration, and I certainly have never seen evidence at all that Ray Franz led a group ever.

Ray's book was confirmation that I wasn't crazy, bad, or lazy, that what I was feeling was OK and that there was something wrong in wonderland.  Yesterday I tried to explain to my oldest son who Ray was and what he did and what I had to do to get his book.  I think he understood.

Forgive me if I just cut and paste what I wrote in a previous thread - but it really goes to your point - he was a good, kind, humble man - always. He is one of the few men that makes me think of the scripture that describes the difference between a righteous man and a good man. Ray was truly a good man.

My first letter to Ray:

Re: Raymond Franz

And his reply to me, soemthing I have never shown anyone but my wife:

Dear Paul,

Thank you for your letter and I am sorry to be a bit slow in replying.

 As of May 8  I will be  87 and in the year 2000  I suffered what was diagnosed as a moderate stroke, no paralysis resulted but it left me tired and with a reduced energy level.  So I am not able to keep up with correspondence as I would like.  Crisis of Conscience is now in 13 languages, which brings in more mail.  My wife’s health has undergone some serious problems as well, requiring the giving of time in that direction. Cynthia underwent a heart catheterization process which revealed six blockages in her heart.  The doctors wanted to do bypass surgery but she opted not to do so. On September of 2007 I underwent a surgical operation on my left carotid artery (one of the main arteries supplying blood to the brain).  It took an hour and a half and I was conscious during the operation since only a local anesthesia was applied. The surgeon made about a 5-inch incision in the neck and then opened the artery and cleared out the blockage in it.    My right carotid artery became totally blocked causing the stroke in the year 2000 and thus it was important to keep the left open and free of blockage.  I only had to spend one night in the hospital, for which I was grateful.   The popular use of the term "golden years" certainly does not describe what older age really brings.  Ecclesiastes Chapter 12 gives a realistic picture.

Many who write have expressed recognition that bitterness and anger only take away credibility from any discussion of the Witnesses.  Unfortunately a large portion of the books and material put out by “ex-JW” sources on the subject are almost entirely negative. A man from England recently wrote:

I'm currently an "active" Witness from England, and I just wanted to say how absolutely relieved I was to read your books ("Crisis of Conscience" and "In Search Of Christian Freedom"). I must confess, reading them was nothing like I expected. My only contact with ex-jw's has been through browsing the net, and to be honest, a lot of what's written doesn't merit much by way of consideration. A lot of sites are so absolutely blinded by bitterness, that even the truth they do provide is soured and unpalatable.

>   We know that by turning everything to their good God cooperates with all  those who  love him.—Jerusalem Bible translation.

> The primary goal of all institutions and subcultures is self-preservation.
> Preserving the faith is central to God’s plan for human history; preserving
> particular religious institutions is not. Do not expect those who run the
> institutions to be sensitive to the difference. God needs no particular
> person, church, denomination, creed or organization to accomplish his purpose.
> He will make use of those, in all their diversity, who are ready to be used,
> but will leave to themselves those who labor for their own ends.
>
> Nonetheless, questioning the institutions is synonymous, for many, with
> attacking God—something not long to be tolerated.  Supposedly they are
> protecting God . . .  Actually, they are protecting themselves, their view of
> the world, and their sense of security. The religious institution has given
> them meaning, a sense of purpose, and, in some cases, careers. Anyone
> perceived as a threat to these things is a threat indeed.
>
> This threat is often met, or suppressed even before it arises, with power. . .
> . Institutions express their power most clearly by enunciating, interpreting
> and enforcing the rules of the subculture.

I have started witnessing informally to people who have Bible questions or  when I see it is an appropriate time to witness.  I offer a free discussion
 on the Bible, its theme concerning Jesus and the Kingdom, the main divisions and how to study it to profit personally.  No obligations, no church, no
 religion,  just a Bible discussion.  I do not associate with any group and do not feel the need to really.  I also do not give personal opinions wherever the
 Scriptures are not clear or are a decision of conscience.  However, I do feel
 the need to let folks know that the Bible's way is the only way to live and
 freedom, true freedom, comes through knowing Jesus Christ.  On occasion I see  myself saying things that must be verified for the correct understanding, but
 I at least feel I know the basics to help someone profit from a personal
 study of the Bible.   It takes a long time to get out of the woods, and I sometimes ask myself if total eradication of WT influence is possible.  When it has
 been a part of your adult life for so long, you still find yourself thinking a
 certain way and then realize it is learned thoughts, not logically thought
 out sometimes.  There are some things you want to hold on to of course, but their  programming gets in the way more often than you would like to believe.  

Good Morning ATJ..

                                              I don`t know of anyone that followed Ray..Not a Soul..

                                                                     Many admired him though..

                                    He was one of the few that had the courage to speak up,about the WBT$..

                                    Saying Ray was a Leader in exJW World,is an insult in Watchtower World..

                                               It`s a way to discredit Ray and anyone who left the WBT$..

                                                                  There are no Leaders in exJW World..

                                                No one to point to and say,thats the Leader of the exJW`s..

                                                 We are a World Wide Collection,of Indepentant People..

                                                Who are all Pissed Off,about the Corruption in the WBT$..

                                                                            Ray was one of us..

                                                                             .............................. ...OUTLAW

I bring a slightly different perspective to this conversation than most.  Ray Franz didn't "free me from the Watchtower" so much as my own doubts buttressed by what I read on JWD.  I learned of Ray's views and experience through JWD first.  For some reason, Crisis of Conscience was always a point of no return for me.  I felt that reading the book was the ultimate sin that would preclude my return to JWism forever.  It was much easier for me mentally to absorb his knowledge indirectly through this forum.

That being said, Ray has touched the lives of every one of us to varying degrees.  He's been the only governing-body member to bring to light practices and procedures concealed which were formerly concealed to those outside of the GB.  Some of us "dipped our toes" in "apostasy" directly by reading Crisis of Conscience.  Others figured it out mostly be themselves and had their suspicions confirmed by Ray's books.

With the disclaimer that I've not read through all of the Ray Franz threads, I'll say that some of the complaints probably are really targeted at the groupthink and group hug mentality that often dominates online forums in general, regardless of the forum's topic.  I imagine that some people may have gone overboard with the flattery, which only stimulates more flattery pile on.  That's the nature of discussion boards.  Forums like these often attract online bullies (aka "trolls") who like to get a rise out of people, mostly because most of them would never behave such way in public.

When I read the latest edition of Crisis of Conscience not to long ago, I noticed a minor discrepancy between what appeared in the body of the text versus what appeared in a footnote.  I thought about posting a thread on the subject, but despite having typed it out, I decided against it because I didn't want to deal with the criticisms that would certainly ensue.  Such criticisms, regardless of how minor, where frowned upon when he was alive, and I'm sure they will be amplified in light of his recent passing.

Nevertheless, Ray Franz provided an invaluable service to all of us who dared to exercise independent thought.  For that I will always be grateful.

Honestly, I never heard of Ray Franz until I came to this board.  I'm still in the process of reading "Crisis of Conscience".   When I first started reading it I had to stop, because it was too hard for me.  And it was touching to read that it was hard for him to write.  

And when he left the organization, I was still in elementary school, so I was too young to understand all that was happening.  I don't think most Witnesses knew or will ever know what actually took place, unless they talk to someone who was there.

And in reading "Crisis of Conscience", it seems he was not bitter and was a very caring and sensitive man.  I can only speak for myself personally, I never had an opportunity to speak with him either in person or e-mail.  But, what he wrote really opened my eyes, and I can never feel the same way about the religion that technically I'm still apart of.  But, in saying that, don't you think that most Witnesses or ex-Witnesses who start reading one of his books, has already made up their mind that something in the org. isn't right?  It may be the final piece of evidence we needed to convince ourselves.  So, no, I don't think anyone here is claiming to follow or worship another man.  I certainly have no intention of following anymore men.  But, I do respect the man and all that he endured as a Witness and then, how hard he had it after.  I'm sad that most Witnesses will still think of him as someone part of the "evil slave class", when he just was a very good man.   And finally, I especially appreciate his sincerity and conviction on doing what he felt was right no matter how challanging it made his life.  He had a lot to lose and not much to gain from it all. 

Ray's inadvertent accomplishment in 1980 was to set the fires for the Apostate witch hunts that followed in the 80s and 90s.

If anyone had reservations about how crazed the Leadership could become over spilling the beans and criticism  this event left no questions.

If you were a target of those witch hunts (Me and countless others), you remember how awful it was and that alone paved the way for our Enlightenment.

Thanks Ray, well worth the stripes.

Thank you Psac and Georgie Girl, What wonderful things these are to share with us.    maeve

People who assume there are those who "follow Ray Franz" are often those who can't imagine life without following SOMEONE.  They either STILL follow the GB/FDS/Borg or they follow some other religious CREED.  What they don't seem to get is that Ray was all about FREEDOM and the value in NOT FOLLOWING ANY MAN or group of men; he was about finding YOUR OWN personal relationship with Christ.  It is difficult for these folks to realize that most of those who respect Ray so much do it in large part precisely because HE DIDN'T WANT TO HAVE FOLLOWERS.

Ray Franz influenced the lives of most people who were in the organization after 1980. Even if they dont know it. Changes in procedure, the new light on how to treat DAs was I think influenced by his dealings with Peter Gregerson, and many articles of the WT and awake were out of fear of him and what he represented.

Thanks to him I am out. Otherwise I would be right now reading my Watchtower magazine instead. I couldnt be more thankful. I wanted to visit him and asked him about it but I guess he was just to sick and too tired. I did write to him though.

I dont think he had "followers" and anyone making such accusations is just out of ignorance.  Nobody here is giving him anything other than respect to his life and what he represents. 

Sometimes people are just angry and look for any reason to direct it to others.

We can only try to follow his example and let everybody we can know that the Jehovahs Witnesses religion is a hoax and a Mind Control Cult.

I'm not making him an 'idol'... I dont want to worship him in any way at all...I just want to pay my respects to a man that wrote about the way he found things on the GB and sought to change them because it was all wrong....all credit to him...

Loz x

I was, inadvertantly, a follower of the Governing Body. I never intended that. I wanted to follow God's lead, and believed the GB had his ear.

That said: I think it is easier to be a 'follower' than what we want to admit at times. We seem to retain a certain amount of 'herd mentality' left over from our evolution perhaps. And though I have never intended to 'follow' Ray Franz, it may be possible that part of my heart and brain did so for a time. After all, once I exited the Jw herd, it was probable, that I would look about for another herd to attach to, for protection. Additionally, in the months following exit from a high control religion, it is very difficult not to find someone, or something, to look to for leadership. Afterall, leaders/followers were all we had known for a lifetime.

In my case, as I read CoC, I believe I did look past the writing, trying to determine if there was some particular religious 'herd' that Ray supported, or even one that he 'headed'. I came short of Raymond Franz becoming my idol, or even my leader, but there was a certain instinctive desire to find a direction that I thought he would approve, if he had known. It is only now, as I reflect, that I even realize this about that period of time.

Raymond Franz was a hero. He was a sterling example of integrity to what he believed. He showed that it was possible to live a life outside the Jw herd, and to do so faithfully, and with determination that marks the power of human will. Ray had left. Ray had survived, even thrived on the outside. It was THAT example that spurred me on, telling me that I could also thrive after leaving.

Ray proved to me what others have proven. Battered wives that strike out on their own and succeed. Rape victims that become survivors and community activists against criminal rape. Soldiers that cast aside pity for the opportunities open to them in spite of prothesis or wheelchairs or lack of sight. He imparted through his kind words Hope! That there was life after Jehovah's Witnesses had raped and plundered our minds. It was this hero that urged me forward, gave me the strength I needed to take back my life, spit in the eye of those who had stolen it in the first place.

I don't idolize Ray. But I loved his courage. I learned how to be independent of "Jehovah's Organization" by his example.

I once made arrangements with Ray to meet up in Florida at another xjw's home where he was visiting. Due to time and resource restrictions, I cancelled. I regret that. Perhaps in some ways though it is better that I didn't meet him in person [though I think I may have shaken his hand at a district convention once or twice]. He didn't want followers. I didn't want to be one. By meeting only over the internet, email and through his writings, was probably the best way for my advancement in the end.

I am saddened by his passing. But honored to have crossed paths with him in this life.

RIP Ray.

Namaste

Jeff

Throughout my life I noticed that people don't seem to give one another any credit for brains or decision making ability. It's always, "He's following so-and-so", "she's under so-and-so's influence". "The devil made him do it", "why are you listening to so-and-so", "so-and-so sucked him in", etc. People seem to be reluctant to put the responsibility for an action where it belongs. I left the JWs without anyone's prodding. My decision was mine alone.

I'm not a follower, adherent, convert, or disciple of Ray or anyone else. Ray didn't knock on my door and shove his books down my throat. I made my own decision to research and leave the JWs, without any prompting from anyone. I appreciate the books that Ray Franz wrote. I didn't leave because of them; I didn't read them until after I DA'd, but it was nice to have some of my theories confirmed and to learn a few more things.

I don't sense any "worshipful admiration" from anyone here. All I sense is the proper respect that is his due for his self sacrifice, work, and integrity.

W

I left the JWs in 1973.  I remember the name Franz.  I remember there were 2 of them on the GB that was expanded in 1971.  I remember Fred more. 

I have a cousin that was at Bethel between about 1975-1979.  He knew Ray Franz.  He thought very highly of him and respected him above others.  I happened to be in Anderson, SC when the word went out that Ray Franz had been disfellowshipped. This is where all my JW relatives live and my cousin was now living there after returning from Bethel.  My cousin came to the family home and told all of us what he had heard.  He was very upset and shaken up by the news. I listened to him with interest. 

I remember when the book was published. I remember looking at it in a bookstore.  I remember wishing that my father were still alive to read it.  He needed that book.  He wouldn't have felt so alone in his doubts and questions and realizations that he struggled with. My father had died in 1978.  I wondered if my mother would ever read it.  I felt triumphant in what I read.  I hoped that the whole organization would soon crumble into the Hudson River.

I only read the book in full 2 years ago after my mother's death.  I am re-reading it now.  I have great respect and admiration for Ray Franz and his book.  But he is no leader of any group.

I don't understand the anger of some.  I'll pray for them.

We can only try to follow his example and let everybody we can know that the Jehovahs Witnesses religion is a hoax and a Mind Control Cult.

This is true.  I'd like to do my part.  I'm unsure how to do it.

  I appreciate deeply the information access to the inside REAL story about what happens inside the WT society walls which as a JW for 44 years - I never would have known about . He opened my eyes to the REAL truth of what was going on . Which enabled me to see the full picture. I thank Ray deeply for that. Although I didn't know him personally- from reading his books I certainly got an insight into his caring, sensitive, thoughtful and yet straightforward, honest , and a justice lover in him as a person.

  I've lost several close friends in death over the years who greatly inspired my life by the way they treated other people and the great example of human beings they were - it taught me life changing lessons which I've tried to implement in my own life in dealing with others in a positive way. I didn't " worship " these friends - but took the good life lessons they learned and put it into myself. I feel Ray had that effect inside me- though I never met him. I was honored to see him treat others with dignity and respect- even his detractors at the top of the WT society.

  I feel I somewhat came to know Ray through his writings- and IF we had met would have formed a good friendship. When people have touched our lives - the rest of our lives , even if they have died- we carry a little bit of them inside of us in our minds and heart - they never really left - the imprint stays within us. In a good way. Peace out, Mr. Flipper

I could do a long and meaningful reply on exactly how Ray Franz' books helped me, but I think a simple tribute is best.

He aided my mind to break free.

My life is better because he lived.

I remember my father finding out about his book, ordering, and keeping  it hidden as an elder.....Many years ago, before the internet.  It changed my Father's world and mine later.

I don't think Ray wound up being a big fan of these xjw sites. It wasn't his motive to discourage people still in or support the various extreme views.

He wasn't bitter, he wasn't looking for justice.  He was absolutely a god fearing soul and just wanted  honesty.

I am glad he didn't suffer too long.  May he now have some peace.

r.

I can understand Ray not being a fan of these xJW web sites.  But they have been a big help to me.  You have to take what you need and leave the rest.