New CO talk: Be loyal to Org. even if you get weird instructions or can prove them wrong doctrinally!

Theme was something about "Loyalty to Jehovah's visible organization".

I have neither the time nor inclination to summarize the whole thing, but a few points stood out:

1) Be loyal to visible org. even if it causes you personal hardship

Example: Joshua & Caleb returned from spy trip to promised land with good report, but were "outvoted" by the other 10 spies. Jehovah punished the faithless Israelites by forcing them to wander in wilderness for 40 years. Joshua & Caleb were right all along, but stuck with "Jehovah's organization" even though they suffered the penalty as well, through no fault of their own.

2) Be loyal to visible org. even if you get difficult-to-understand instructions

Example: After Israelites crossed Jordan river, but prior to attacking Jericho, Jehovah commanded all uncircumcised Israelites to get clipped. Seemed like very poor strategy -- they needed several days to recover, and were extremely vulnerable, being trapped between flood-stage river and hostile city. But they did it anyway, and Jericho did not attack - Jehovah protected them.

3) Be loyal to visible org. even if you know they are wrong

Example 1: 1st century "governing body" told Paul to ceremonially cleanse self before talking to Jews. He must have known it wouldn't work, and in fact it didn't work, as they tried to kill him & he had to appeal to Caesar. But that opened the way for him to give a witness in Rome. The 1st century "governing body" weren't thinking "what's the best way to get Paul to Rome", but it worked out that way - Jehovah used them to accomplish his will.

Example 2: During World War I, the WT did not promote a strong neutrality position, told Bible Students to "follow conscience" with regard to supporting war efforts. Some Bible Students knew this was wrong, and broke away. But soon after breaking away, they "faded and came to nothing." Eventually, by 1939, the organization got it right and published a series of WT articles on the importance of strict neutrality.

Sir82's comments: Wow! Simultaneously scary and puzzling. Scariest of all was the counsel, not only to blindly obey instructions you "don't understand", but to obey even if it will definitely cause you to suffer. I've never heard anything so explicit.

Also, I found it highly unusual that they would even hint that they might be wrong on some things. Of course, that was mitigated by the sheer gall of requiring absolute obedience anyway - "yeah, we might be wrong, but Jehovah is using us, so obey us anyway."

The target seemed to be people who were growing sick of the flip-flops and the endless boring treadmill of JW routine - trying to get them to stick around anyway. It wasn't exactly highly motivating, at least not to me - I'll see what reaction others have as I get a chance to talk to them.

Comments?

WTF  Excuse the language but if that doesn't sound cultish then I don't know what else does.  That's exactly how Jim Jones got everyone to drink the coolade.  Got parents to kill their children.  Good Lord, will it ever end?  Will people ever wake up!!

WOW! REading that just flashed all these different 'rules' in my mind that JWs are expected to live by and NEVER question - and it makes me so happy I'm OUT of that environment now.

If they come right out and say, "Be loyal to visible org. even if you know they are wrong" I'm done, no slow fade, just stand up and walk out the front door. If anyone of my "friends" or family still want to stay in and shun me for taking my stand against hypocrisy, so be it.

Our CO visit is in 2 weeks. I'm starting the count down. Thanks for the heads-up post, this should be interesting.

I've heard the Joshua and Caleb shit before.  In fact, an elder used it on me on a sheparding call when I first started openly questioning things.  J&C could have left the camp and gone on their own way but their dedication to Jehovah caused them to stay because they knew that ultimately Jehovah would deliver them. 

This is a particularly evil MO, because on the surface it is convincing and it works.  Most people new to questioning and doubting have either not developed critical thinking skills or have not used them in so long they've forgotten how, so when this material is presented it halts that rebellious thinking in it's tracks.

There are numerous flaws in the J&C theory/story, but when presented by the CO in a KH setting, all thinking ceases and you accept it at face value. 

This talk does make it seem that they know they're losing people and they're getting desperate to try to control the masses.

"Obey us even when we're wrong"     Wow...

Let me say this plainly:  Greed.  That's what's at work here - the overwhelming greediness of the Governing Body, not for money (although they need that) but greediness to dominate and control people, no matter what.

This is not the first time this C.O. talk subject has popped up recently.  After this, what's the next move? Hysteria?

metatron

Some Bible Students knew this was wrong, and broke away. But soon after breaking away, they "faded and came to nothing."

what does this proove? 2 wrongs do not make a right, logical fallacy!

i'm already bombing little stuff to my wife weekly, i'm having it!

how can anyone exercise faith a religion where you gotta be there every meeting in order to get the latest reversal in teachings?

Soldier77 If they come right out and say, "Be loyal to visible org. even if you know they are wrong" I'm done, no slow fade, just stand up and walk out the front door.

REALLY???? THAT take cojones! If I saw that - someone just get up and storm out the Khall - my eyes would bug out and I would seriously be nosey enough to follow you and ask you WHY! That is TOO cool!!!

Scariest of all was the counsel, not only to blindly obey instructions you "don't understand", but to obey even if it will definitely cause you to suffer. I've never heard anything so explicit.

Pass the Kool-Aid.  Don't forget the cyanide.

3) Be loyal to visible org. even if you know they are wrong

Anyone who is not under the influence of Thought Reform will easily recognize how insane and unethical this truly is.

So did God protect the jws that listened in 1967 and did not have organ transpants; no they died.  Reminds me how when David committed adultery and murder, his family and other people died, not him.  His wives were raped, the child died, his older sons died, they killed other people seeking the kingship.

Did those Bible Student groups really disappear?

http://www.jehovahs-witnesses.net/sscc12.html

Joshua and Caleb???

LOL.

They'd better hope the rank-and-file won't try to stone them as some Israelites did to Joshua and Caleb.

I smell fear.

Does anyone else?

Sylvia

I agree that this takes things to a new level.  It's disturbing and scary.  Unfortunately many of them have so much emotionally invested that they just can't let go no matter what is said to them.

So did God protect the jws that listened in 1967 and did not have organ transpants; no they died. 

Standard JW response:

Oh, Blondie, but they were spiritually protected! Since they were so loyal and obedient, they are sure to get a resurrection!

Now, don't tell me your faith in the resurrection is wavering, sister....

I smell fear.

Does anyone else?

Yes.  And desperation.

Example 1: 1st century "governing body" told Paul to ceremonially cleanse self before talking to Jews. He must have known it wouldn't work, and in fact it didn't work, as they tried to kill him & he had to appeal to Caesar. But that opened the way for him to give a witness in Rome. The 1st century "governing body" weren't thinking "what's the best way to get Paul to Rome", but it worked out that way - Jehovah used them to accomplish his will.

THis is from Acts 21: 17-26:

17 When we arrived at Jerusalem, the brothers received us warmly.  18 The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James, and all the elders were present.  19 Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry.

 20 When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law.  21 They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs.  22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come,  23 so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow.  24 Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everybody will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law.  25 As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.”

 26 The next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he went to the temple to give notice of the date when the days of purification would end and the offering would be made for each of them.

But sir82, in that example, the Israelites were not being spiritually protected but physically protected.  I know the standard jw response but it is not in keeping with the example.  The CO did not say, although they died, they were spiritually protected; because they didn't die, God protected them physically.

As you can see, This was to show that Paul was, despite his teachinsg to the gentiles, still an Observing Jew, nothing  more and nothing less.

As for the "TELL" part, that is the word "lego" which means "to say, to tell, or to command", it doesn't imply a command necessarliy and as we can tell by Paul's history with the elders in Jerusalem, He souldn't have done it unless he wanted to anyways.

It was probably more a suggestion than anything else

They said this a the DC in 2008. It was just one talk but they used the example of Ezekiel's chariot and how if moved every which way. They said the angles did not ask why it moved like it did they just followed it no matter what. So we need to do like wise with Jehovah's org. We are not to ask why just do what they tell us even if it does not make sense to us at the time we must obey the one Jehovah has chosen. 

I was sitting there just on the verge of knowing this is not the "truth" and I just starting crying. I looked at my husband and said this is a cult. How can they say that. My husbands answer was that the speaker put that in the outline that the FS did not truly mean it the way the speaker was telling us.

Sad LITS

Reminds me of the last public talk outline I did back in 2006 - "A Loyal Congregation Under Christ's Leadership"  has a ton of the same drivel in the outline.