Have JW's got the Memorial date wrong?

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    M wobble posted Wed, 03 Feb 2010 08:31:00 GMT(2/3/2010)

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    I remember a long and complicated debate between our very own Joseph Malik and the unbelievably named Rud Perrson about the sabbaths that seemed to show that the nit-picking Witlesses had even got this wrong !

    I would love to see a simple explanation.

    The other thing is that I do believe the once a year thing is wrong, Jesus didn't say "Every passover", they were enjoying a meal together, and he said "As often as you do this......" so whenever they ate together it would be good to have something that celebrated Jesus' life and death.

    But is Nisan14 wrong anyway ?

    Love

    Wobble

    WTWizard posted Wed, 03 Feb 2010 08:34:00 GMT(2/3/2010)

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    I believe it is as likely to be wrong as not. I can still remember the REJECT Jesus Party that was in March. That year, Easter was in April, a month later--and of course the witlesses claimed that the world was in the wrong. And, more recently they got the whole thing wrong (2008)--both the REJECT Jesus Party and Easter were a month too early.

    cameo-d posted Wed, 03 Feb 2010 09:21:00 GMT(2/3/2010)

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    The Gauls were notorious for beheading their enemies and drinking their blood from the skull.

    This act was a victory ritual.

    Perhaps this is what Jesus was referring to when he passed the cup of wine and sarcastically made reference to it being his blood. He knew they were going to kill him and by mentioning this type of ritual, he was pointing out his killers.

    His killers were the rulers of religion and commerce. And it still thrives today.

    international bankers=money changers=illuminati

    If you look at bottom center, you will see that this Byzantine artist left a hint. Though many say that the skull and bones images found in many of the old crucifixion paintings refer to "golgotha", that is probably an excuse. I think it depicts the killers calling card. The skull and bones icon refers to something else and most people know it by now. Using the excuse of Golgotha to explain the skull was probably the only way that artists could let this important information slip past so that it could be deciphered in these 'last days'.

    Podobear posted Wed, 03 Feb 2010 09:28:00 GMT(2/3/2010)

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    Have you tried reading the material published by Greg Stafford on this subject, Wobble? There appears to be no firm understanding about the frequency of the celebration, the accuracy of the exact time of the Passover. And, despite being known as Quartodecinarians, this appears to have been due consensus by the early "church".. the Romans knowing exactly where to find hoards of Christians on that "memorial" night. All the best. Podo..

    M fokyc posted Wed, 03 Feb 2010 10:29:00 GMT(2/3/2010)

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    They cannot have got the Memorial date wrong!

    Jehovah told them: "Tuesday March 30th 2010 after sundown".

    After all the JW's are Jehovah's personal representatives on earth.

    fokyc

    donuthole posted Wed, 03 Feb 2010 14:20:00 GMT(2/3/2010)

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    JW's sometimes get the date wrong. They have started the count at the astronomical new moon (no visibility) when they should go by first visibility of the new moon, which is the ancient way of reckoning it. Also technically you are supposed to calculate the New Year when the barley in Palestine is at the aviv stage of development. If it is immature you add an extra month to the year - making it a thirteen month long year - delaying Nisan until the next New Moon. In events like this they can be as much as a month off, which was the case in 2008.

    M JosephMalik posted Wed, 03 Feb 2010 15:37:00 GMT(2/3/2010)

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    Wobble,

    The date the time and who was present are just some of the things they got wrong. And there is more that I did not cover in that discussion. But you can see some of the evidence simply by reading the accounts given in scripture place side by side. http://home.earthlink.net/~jmalik/ch9notes.txt

    I know that this is only about Jesus our Savior and His ordeal to redeem us so there does not seem to be any effort by the Watchtower Jehovists to get it right or understand it properly since it would disturb the flock. And they may discover that their trumpet was playing a sour note all this time and/or their channel from God was snowy and faded out but I cared and wanted to know what happened to my savior. And then many have different views on it so their is lots of noise out there on the subject. And this is a topic that effects most all denominations and not just the Watchtower so they have a stake in it as well since their views differ from scripture and depend on scholars who did not know the correct answer either. None of them seem to realize that the Passover meal is always a Sabbath and the next afternoon in still Sabbath. Or that the bread was a sacred ingredient of that meal? Go figure.

    Joseph

    donuthole posted Wed, 03 Feb 2010 16:59:00 GMT(2/3/2010)

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    @Joseph

    Your timeline has Jesus dying on a Thursday. How is this reconciled with John 19:31 which states that the death needed to be hastened because the next day was a Sabbath.

    M JosephMalik posted Wed, 03 Feb 2010 17:33:00 GMT(2/3/2010)

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    donuthole,

    Because during Passover (a week long event) there was a Sabbath that Friday and a another Preparation day before this Friday. In fact this is the preparation day of Nisan 20 mentioned by John and not the one not even mentioned as preparation day, the time the Lambs were killed and prepared earlier that week on Nisan 14. Thursday was a day of Preparation for the unleavened bread that was made from new grain during Passover. This was also a requirement for the festival of weeks that always begins during Passover week or the Festival of Unleavened bread which it was also called. Passover and Pentecost are inseparably tied together because of this. As our Lord was before Pilate around the 12th hour or 12 noon our time on Wednesday discussing if Barrabas or Jesus should be set free and since Jesus was nailed up on the very next third hour afterward it had to be the third hour of the night and the date also changed from the Wed to the beginning of Thursday or 9PM which was their third hour of the night and a day of Preparation. Now the next afternoon after that was still Thursday and still a day of Preparation for the 7th day of Passover when it became dark and an earthquake took place. With Friday the 7th day of Passover a Sabbath and Saturday a Legal Sabbath we have a high or great Sabbath of 48 hours during that observance. Nothing really unusual about this and the Scriptures can refer to the Passovers in singular or plural depending on the context of their material which they did. English translations however tend to hide this from us. And some argue that the 1st an/or 7th Passover days are not real Sabbaths since the work of preparing food could be done on the, but in fact they were more important than weekly Sabbaths and would override the Law on doing such work on them. The Talmud agrees. Does all this sound strange? How could so many denominations get it wrong? Well I did not write the scriptures and anyone that really wants to know can read them for themselves. As for the Watchtower and its teachings. Run don't walk away from them and don't bother to look back. More information in Beyond Watchtower doctrine which downloads with the book at: http://home.earthlink.net/~jmalik/btwbook.html

    Joseph

    M thetrueone posted Wed, 03 Feb 2010 17:53:00 GMT(2/3/2010)

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    A message from Jesus

    Your all idiots....

    donuthole posted Wed, 03 Feb 2010 18:15:00 GMT(2/3/2010)

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    @Joseph

    Please excuse me but I'm still a bit confused on this. Why is the Friday considered a Sabbath? I thought Jews observed Saturday as Sabbath?

    Edit: Nevermind, I see that the seventh day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread is a Sabbath per Leviticus 23:7,8

    PSacramento posted Wed, 03 Feb 2010 18:20:00 GMT(2/3/2010)

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    The JW's got a lot wrong in rgeards to the last supper, the got it wrong that Judas did NOT parake, he DID.

    So yeah, they probably got the date wrong too !

    M JosephMalik posted Wed, 03 Feb 2010 18:40:00 GMT(2/3/2010)

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    donuthole,

    Right and this was not something limited to Passover. The same could happen at other 7 day festivals as well during the year. When the first day of a 7 day festival could fall on any day of the week (as it is a variable) but just happens to be coincident with a weekly Sabbath or Saturday then the 7th day must of necessity fall on Friday making a great Sabbath at its end. Other combinations are also possible so we have to try them all and see which one fits the texts. This worked while the others did not. Even going back to the week before Passover and the trip our Lord made to it fit these facts. I tried to be careful with all this as it was so incredible and even seemingly impossible but it all fit. While all this was done over 30 years ago still no one seems to get it and I get criticized for it. All I can do is make it known and let the chips fall where they may. Study, you have no idea what still lies hidden in the texts.

    Joseph

    PSacramento posted Wed, 03 Feb 2010 18:45:00 GMT(2/3/2010)

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    Hey Joeseph,

    Can you give us a cliff note version of your chronology?

    donuthole posted Wed, 03 Feb 2010 18:57:00 GMT(2/3/2010)

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    @JosephMalik

    Interesting subject to look at for certain. Your thesis rests on the assumption that Scriptural references to "the Passover", during the time between Jesus' arrest and execution, should be understood, not in reference to time when the Passover (sacrificed lamb) was prepared/eaten, but rather the entire "Festival of Unleavened Bread" which was a week long festival. Is there a basis for this?

    As I understand "the Passover" refers to the sacrificial lamb that was prepared and eaten during Nisan 14/15. So why, according to your timeline, is Scripture still speaking of the Passover on Nisan 18, 19, etc.?

    Added: Specifically look at John 18:28, where is says they wanted to keep clean so that they could "eat the Passover". Since "the Passover" is specifically the sacrificed lamb - what do you propose they were concerned about eating?

    One More Addition: Take a look at Exodus 12:21 where the Jews were intructed to "slaughter the Passover". They were not killing a holiday or a festival but a lamb. I know in modern times Passover refers to a Holiday but in the Bible it is in reference to the sacrificial lamb. Compare to how Paul refers to Jesus as "our Passover" at 1 Cor 5:7.

    M JosephMalik posted Wed, 03 Feb 2010 19:00:00 GMT(2/3/2010)

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    PSacramento,

    Well there is information all over the place here on JWD. And some have run with it but changed time like the WT does, since the did not seem to understand introductory remarks like having the meal on the 14th (but in the evening when the date changed to the 15th). Moses set the standard for how such things should be stated and they confuse me at times. Not easy to see at first but we should not make up things that change dates or days instead. Learning how to read a Jewish Calendar made if more visible to me. The two links provided here should be enough and I really expect everyone to do their own work and perhaps simply check their work against it so that what they teach does not come from me. You should be able to do better.

    Joseph

    PSacramento posted Wed, 03 Feb 2010 19:08:00 GMT(2/3/2010)

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    Gottcha Joseph.

    M JosephMalik posted Wed, 03 Feb 2010 19:19:00 GMT(2/3/2010)

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    Passover (sacrificed lamb) was prepared/eaten,

    donuthole,

    Of course, the lamb was never eaten on the 14th. It was the sacrifice always eaten on the 15th the 1st day of Unleavened bread. Our Lord ate this same sacrifice that represented Him before He died as a matter of this Law. The same goes for the Unleavened bread itself and eating it on the 14th would be against the Law. Eating it at anytime during the festival in an unclean condition would also be against the Law. It was a sacred ingredient of the feast that was named after it. Of course the name changed from Unfermented bread to Passover later in OT texts and was called both ways in NT texts. The scriptures were getting us ready for its fulfillment. We can also say that the third cup of the four cups of wine consumed during the meal or the cup of blessing which Paul identified in 1 Cor would be considered holy as well. Now the feast itself represented what? The time of our Lords passion. That was the greater time and purpose of it. Make sense? Why else would our Lord say: John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. Jesus knew what it meant and we should as well.

    Joseph

    donuthole posted Wed, 03 Feb 2010 19:40:00 GMT(2/3/2010)

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    @JosephMalik

    As I understand it the Passover (sacrificial lamb) was prepared on the 14th and eaten that evening on the 15th, which was also the first day of Festival of the Unleavened Bread. I think we are in agreement on that.

    You said - "Of course the name changed from Unfermented bread to Passover later in OT texts and was called both ways in NT texts."

    Could you cite specific examples of this?

    Reviewing those scriptures in John it seems to be referring to the lamb. When it says the religious leaders wanted to be clean to "eat the Passover', I don't see how it could mean anything other than eating the lamb. Remember the lamb had to be eaten in its entirety that evening. It was only eaten during one evening, probably the 15th, not during the entire seven days of the festival.

    highdose posted Wed, 03 Feb 2010 19:45:00 GMT(2/3/2010)

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    wobble: i'm curious about your theory that Jesus never wanted his death remembered year on year, can you expand on this please?

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