Bookmark and Share

Viewed 1646 times

Jehovah's Organization

    Sassenach posted Thu, 28 Dec 2000 14:46:00 GMT(12/28/2000)

    Post 4 of 78
    Joined 12/27/2000

    Perhaps you can help me with this. I've recently had a discussion with a witness friend in which she said that Jehovah had to have an organization. If not Jehovah's Witnesses, then who else could possibly have His approval?

    What I would like to know is if Jehovah has always had an organization, who were they? I know that the first century Christians were considered to be one, but who else?

    Thanks

    logical posted Thu, 28 Dec 2000 16:50:00 GMT(12/28/2000)

    Post 19 of 1626
    Joined 12/19/2000

    Well... if you go onto the Bible Research forum, and read the posts by MDS and Bitter Truth, all will become clear

    Edited by - logical on 28 December 2000 12:45:17

    Sassenach posted Thu, 28 Dec 2000 17:34:00 GMT(12/28/2000)

    Post 5 of 78
    Joined 12/27/2000

    Logical, I can't get the board to display posts older than ten days. When I click for posts earlier back I get a message that reads:

    "405 Method Not Allowed

    The method specified in the Request Line is not allowed for the resource identified by the request. Please ensure that you have
    the proper MIME type set up for the resource you are requesting.

    Please contact the server's administrator if this problem persists."

    I'm using netscape. Is there another way to view the posts?

    M Simon posted Thu, 28 Dec 2000 18:06:00 GMT(12/28/2000)

    Post 472 of 15072
    Joined 3/23/2000

    I'll look into this Sassenach - it should work with Netscape OK though.

    M RR posted Thu, 28 Dec 2000 18:15:00 GMT(12/28/2000)

    Post 84 of 3608
    Joined 12/13/2000

    Greetings,

    Jehovah has NEVER dealth with an organization, he HAS, however dealt with individuals.

    If by chance these individuals get organized for any given purpose, it is simply for that ... a purpose, NOT, however for claiming for themselves things not given to them.

    It is myself that Jehovah has had faithful servant[s] on the earth, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, the prophets, Although he did deal with Israel as a nation, it was only because of a promise he made to Jacob and his forefathers, a promise he cannot rescind. Today the highest order is within the congregation, still, God deals with the individuals of these congregations AS individuals and not collectively.

    One must always keep in mind that no matter how braggy the Society is, or all the claims they make, no matter how many hours you do in service, literature placed, studies conducted, meetings attended, converts made, the Society can NOT give you everlasting life. That is only by Jesus.

    Tus association with the Society is NOT a means of everlasting life ... it is through Christ Jesus , through our personal relationship with HJim that we gain salvation, not through manmade organizations.

    "People in glass houses, shouldn't throw stones"

    Sassenach posted Thu, 28 Dec 2000 19:04:00 GMT(12/28/2000)

    Post 6 of 78
    Joined 12/27/2000

    RR,

    Thank you. I guess I didn't make my initial entry clear. What I would really like to know is what do Jehovah's Witnesses believe? This isn't the first time I've heard a witness say "Jehovah has always used an organization", but I've never heard of another 'organization' except the first century Christians.

    F waiting posted Thu, 28 Dec 2000 20:32:00 GMT(12/28/2000)

    Post 1306 of 6501
    Joined 5/13/2000

    Hey Sass,

    read the posts by MDS and Bitter Truth, all will become clear - logical
    That is logical's own, personal opinion. I've read most of those posts - and I think they're not worth the space they take up on my screen. That is my personal opinion.

    What I would really like to know is what do Jehovah's Witnesses believe? This isn't the first time I've heard a witness say "Jehovah has always used an organization"

    I've been a jw for 30 yrs. To the best of my knowledge, the WTBTS teaches that there has always been an individual or group of individuals who have faithfully kept the Bible alive. In the Dark Ages and during the Spanish, then Roman Inquisitions, these individuals were persecuted horribly for their beliefs - which weren't the same as the WTBTS of today. But they were honestly trying to serve God out of love. The Jacobeans, Wesylans, etc.

    The WTBTS teaches that the first century Christians were an established organization with elders, governing body, etc. That is doubtful if you take the time to read the history of the first century Christians. To jump from the first century Christians (doubtful organization) - thru Russell (their founder, who was deadset against any type of religious organization) - to the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses is quite a leap, don't you think?

    The jw who told you the above quote was incorrect. Many jw's make sweeping generalizations to back up their stance. They know that the vast majority of individuals who they talk to don't know much about the Bible or biblical history. Safe sweep for them.

    Nice to meet you.

    waiting

    Frenchy posted Thu, 28 Dec 2000 20:52:00 GMT(12/28/2000)

    Post 832 of 1735
    Joined 3/27/2000

    Jehovah's Witnesses strongly contend that God works with an organization and not with individuals. Here is an excerp from one of their publications:
    *** Live Forever 192-4 23 God's Visible Organization ***
    GOD’S VISIBLE ORGANIZATION—PAST AND PRESENT

    4 The Bible shows that Jehovah has always guided his servants in an organized way. For example, men of faith such as Abraham led their families and servants in worshiping Jehovah. Jehovah made known his will for Abraham by speaking with him. (Genesis 12:1) And God instructed him to pass this information on to others, saying: “I have become acquainted with [Abraham] in order that he may command his sons and his household after him so that they shall keep Jehovah’s way.” (Genesis 18:19) Here was an orderly arrangement for a group of people to worship Jehovah properly.
    5 Later, when the Israelites increased in numbers and became millions, Jehovah did not let each one worship in his own way, separate from any organized arrangement. No, the Israelites were formed into a nation of organized worshipers. The nation of Israel was called “Jehovah’s congregation.” (Numbers 20:4; 1 Chronicles 28:8) If you were a true worshiper of Jehovah back then, you had to be part of that congregation of worshipers, not separate from it.—Psalm 147:19, 20.
    6 What was the situation in the first century? The Bible shows that Jehovah’s favor was upon the followers of his Son Jesus Christ. Jehovah poured out his holy spirit upon them. To show that he was now using this Christian organization rather than the nation of Israel, he gave certain early Christians power to heal the sick, raise the dead and to perform other miracles. You cannot read the Christian Greek Scriptures without being impressed by the fact that Christians were organized for worship. In fact, they were commanded to meet together for this purpose. (Hebrews 10:24, 25) So if you were a true worshiper of Jehovah in the first century, you had to be a part of his Christian organization.
    7 Did Jehovah ever use more than one organization during any period of time? In Noah’s day only Noah and those with him inside the ark had God’s protection and survived the floodwaters. (1 Peter 3:20) Also, in the first century there were not two or more Christian organizations. God dealt with just the one. There was just the “one Lord, one faith, one baptism.” (Ephesians 4:5) Likewise in our day Jesus Christ foretold that there would be only one source of spiritual instruction for God’s people.
    8 When telling of his presence in Kingdom power, Jesus said: “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. Truly I say to you, He will appoint him over all his belongings.” (Matthew 24:45-47) On his return in Kingdom power in the year 1914, did Christ find a “faithful and discreet slave” class providing spiritual “food,” or information? Yes, he found such a “slave” made up of the remaining ones on earth of his 144,000 “brothers.” (Revelation 12:10; 14:1, 3) And since 1914 millions of persons have accepted the “food” they provide, and have begun practicing true religion along with them. This organization of God’s servants is known as Jehovah’s Witnesses.
    9 Jehovah’s Witnesses look to God and his Word for direction in all that they do. Their very name Jehovah’s Witnesses shows that their main activity is to witness about the name and kingdom of Jehovah God, even as Christ did. (John 17:6; Revelation 1:5) Also, they call the place where they meet for worship the Kingdom Hall because God’s kingdom by the Messiah, or Christ, is the theme of the entire Bible. Since it is clear that first-century Christianity had God’s approval, Jehovah’s Witnesses pattern their organization after it. Let us look briefly at that early Christian organization and then note the similarities with God’s visible organization today." --end quote

    There is quite a bit of information in their literature about it. Let me know if you are interested in more.

    -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-

    M RR posted Thu, 28 Dec 2000 23:08:00 GMT(12/28/2000)

    Post 88 of 3608
    Joined 12/13/2000

    All in a nutshell? The Witnesses believe that they, and they alone are True Christians, they have taught to gain salvation, one must be a baptized Jehovah's Witness in good standing, that all other religions are of the devil, that there is only two sides, satan's and Jehovah, and if your not on Jehovah's side [a witness] then you are on satan's side and will perish at armageddon, because ONLY Jehovah's Witnesses will survive and be delivered. They view the Society as God's visible organization on earth and that it is the spiritual ark, one must be in to gain salvation.

    Actually the scriptures teach that Jesus is the ark in which to gain salvation.

    "People in glass houses, shouldn't throw stones"

    F waiting posted Fri, 29 Dec 2000 01:40:00 GMT(12/29/2000)

    Post 1312 of 6501
    Joined 5/13/2000

    Hey Frenchy,

    In response to the WTBTS's article on organization:

    #4. Here was an orderly arrangement for a group of people to worship Jehovah properly. An orderly arrangement does not mean an organization. Who says what is "proper?"

    #5. If you were a true worshiper of Jehovah back then, you had to be part of that congregation of worshipers, not separate from it. That would be the Mosiac Law, and we are not under that Law, no matter how hard the Society tries to put us under certain parts of the Law. Jesus came as fulfillment of the Law to free us of the Law.

    #6. So if you were a true worshiper of Jehovah in the first century, you had to be a part of his Christian organization. This one, I find questionable. What about the Ethopian Uniuch? There is no Biblical record that he joined any group, let alone organization. What about the man who was doing miracles apart from Jesus and his disciples? Jesus response: Leave him alone, he does works in the name of Jesus. (Somebody here will know the scripture. - the apostles wanted Jesus to rebuke the man who was not a close follower of Jesus, but Jesus refused to rebuke him.) These two accounts were written "for an example for us to follow" according to the Society - as were the rest of the scriptures, even the account of Melchizedek, who didn't follow anyone that is written about.

    #7. Did Jehovah ever use more than one organization during any period of time? In Noah’s day only Noah and those with him inside the ark had God’s protection and survived the floodwaters. (1 Peter 3:20) This was not "an organization." This was one man's family in a big boat. Which some find the whole account historically questionable. At the very least - 8 people considered an organization is like a bunch of kids thinking they are a secret society.

    #8. And since 1914 millions of persons have accepted the “food” they provide, and have begun practicing true religion along with them. Why was 1914 brought into this discussion of Jehovah's organization throughout the centuries?

    #9. Since it is clear that first-century Christianity had God’s approval. Agreed.

    #9a. Jehovah's Witnesses pattern their organization after it. That would be the most debatable comment, don't you think?

    Besides that, the WTBTS jumped entirely the years 100 after Jesus to the year 1914. Pretty remarkable jumping ability, don't you think, Frenchy?

    waiting

    logical posted Fri, 29 Dec 2000 06:17:00 GMT(12/29/2000)

    Post 20 of 1626
    Joined 12/19/2000

    Dont forget that Jehovah's Witnesses DO NOT get baptised in the Father / Son / Holy Spirit.

    The Governing Body replaces all of that.

    IDOLATORY

    MDS posted Fri, 29 Dec 2000 06:19:00 GMT(12/29/2000)

    Post 34 of 183
    Joined 8/9/2000

    Hi Sassenach:

    Is Jehovah God for Organization or not? Does He "organize" His People? Should JWs be an "organization", is this God's Will?

    When some in religious circules make use of the word, "organization," to many ex-JWs, they cringe, and much disdain is vented from them. They state clearly that they do not believe in an "organization" for God's People. They claim that such will always "fail," miserably. They are also quick to remind you, that even, the word "organization," in fact, does not even appear in the Bible itself at all. And this is quite true.

    But this has not always been the case among many of JWs. Actually, the question of Jehovah God making use of a "organization" or not, scripturally, truthfully, came under much criticism when ex-Governing Body member, RV Franz decided to attack the notion back some 20 years ago, with the release of his book, "Crisis of Conscience", around that time.

    As you have already seen, most of the people on this board, be they ex-JWs or not, espouse and embrace the viewpoint which is unmistakably synonymous with RV Franz' viewpoints and attitudes and so on. And thus, unwittingly, while trying to get as far away from the WTS viewpoints/GB viewpoints and teachings, inadvertently become the "product" of RV Franz's thinking and ideas, whether good or bad, right or wrong. They may not like this comment, but this is true. The Bible really, does not enter the true picture at all.

    Their viewpoints are non Bible-based.

    In fact, you will find, it will be a rare occasion indeed, when such ones will disagree with ANYTHING taught or espoused by RV Franz and company, as revealed in print.

    But, what is the reality of the situation, and the use of this word, "organization," among Jehovah's Witnesses as a people today?

    Really, when we objectively, examine the situation, we find the use of the word, "Organization," as used by Jehovah's Witnesses today, is trully Bible based, in line with God's Will.

    Actually, Jehovah's Witnesses are a organization. They are taught this. They believe this. And they prove this many times over, .. for example, for instance, when we see them, UNITEDLY put up a structure, a kingdom hall in 2 days or less, over and over again, in locations all across the nation and places elsewhere. Yes, they are truly "organized." They accomplish much, as a team. The newspapers, the Television crews, come out to "visit," and give "testimony," to such "organized" efforts of JWs, worldwide. They are praised, much praised for this.

    They work together, and have worked together for many years. They are "united" as a group. This is admirable. And we know they are taught from the Bible, that they will succeed ONLY, as an organization, as the "Great Crowd, and not as individuals, but as a united congregational throng. Now, when recognize this, then we can begin to understand why they cling to the notion so strongly.

    But is the idea, Biblical, scriptural?

    Scripturally, contrary to what RV Franz and Company teaches, the teaching of God's People being "united," and functioning as an "organization," is truly, a Bible-based idea and teaching. It is truly that. The "Pharisaical" WTS leaders, will quickly point you to scriptures like 1 Cor. 1:10, 2 Cor. 13:11 and Rev. 7:9 and that points rings out clear. But remember Jesus' words, do as the "pharisees say, but not as they do," in secret. Jehovah is very displeased with these modernday "Pharisees" of our time.

    Nevertheless, still the fact remains, that God's People, are "organized," thus an "organization" ... which is not wrong at all. Actually, the ancient nation of "Israel," was one of the most highly "organized" cultures of their time.

    Actually, when we examine the root word for this word, organization, based upon the Greek, "urg..erg..." which literally, basically, means "work." Just work.

    Thus, and "organization, then is realized, when the ability to accomplish something, some project, some activity, some work IS DONE AS A GROUP. Thus we have the word, "organization."

    It is like, many parts, functioning together as a group or single unit. In this, we are reminded of the human body, its many parts, working together as one. Yes, the True Church of Christ, has been compared with human "body" functions, its many functions...the "church" of God.

    A strong point for the word, "organization."

    We are reminded of the fact that JWs as an organization, have and can still, accomplish much, working as a single unit. And thus, this has to be viewed by Jehovah God, yes, as a good thing before Him.

    The many promises of the Bible, hold out this same future, too, for modern-day "Israel," a refined, disciplined people, still working together as a "single unit," working together as a team, as a family, a single functioning unit before Our God. -- Isa. 30:26

    Therefore, in our final analysis, we must recognize the fact, that Jehovah will always, gather His people together, and they will always be seen as an "organized," group. This is scripturally, Biblically well-founded within the scriptures.

    Such coordination, among God's People, brings about "peace," "unity" and much satisfaction and accomplishment. Just as 1 Cor. 14:33, 40 says:

    "For God is a God, not of disorder, but of Peace...But let all things take place decently and by arrangement."

    Even the "kingdom of God," even that in itself, that expression, gives strong evidence of a coming "system of things," a Divine arrangement, that can be called a "kosmos," or literally rendered, a "world." -- Matthew 13th

    The word "kosmos," translated for "world," then reminds us of supreme "arrangement," "orderliness," like seen in the field of "Cosmetics," where the women can "arrange," their hair in such a way to be beautified...

    ...or the grand universe itself, the "Cosmology," the collection of stars, moons, planets, all working together in HARMONY, ever MOVING, everything in "its place," all things moving together, but no disharmony, the galaxies, gigantic in size, clusters of galaxies, moving at tremendous speeds, quasars, and yet, no disharmony, nothing colliding into each other...no, never.

    It is God's Harmony, God's "unity," God's Organization, His "Kosmos," as the Greeks would call it, in ancient times.

    So, when you read of the "kingdom of God," being likened to a "field," also a "world," where the symbolic "wheat" and "Weeds," are divided up from one another... they [wheat/weeds] are taken from a "world," or a "Kosmos," a "kosmology," a greatly ordered, arrangement, a Cosmos...the "field," the "world," is really a "kosmos," an orderly arrangement, mentioned by Vines Expository of New Testament Words. -- See Matthew 13:24-43

    And what will assure such "order" too, are the following words,

    "And the Son of man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out from his kingdom ["HIS field," "HIS world," "HIS Kosmos"] all things that cause stumbling and persons who are doing lawlessness," -- Matt. 13:41

    It is God's "Kosmos," His "field," His "world,"... right?

    So, this above mentioned "action," on the part of Jehovah, then will always assure us of the fact that God's People, "Israel," JWs, will always, always be a people, "organized," an "organization." He will keep it so.

    So, does Jehovah God believe in "organization?"

    ... many, many say no.

    But, really, just look up at the stars, they will give you the true "answer."

    He is a God of "organization," completely, totally. And His "people," always be "organized," too, forever. And those that refuse to "submit," will ultimately not become a part of that fine, outstanding "organization" that, as a group, unitely, gains everlasting life before our Great God, Jehovah...the One who makes the organization -- "work!"

    MDS

    M TR posted Fri, 29 Dec 2000 07:08:00 GMT(12/29/2000)

    Post 141 of 3844
    Joined 9/18/2000

    To anyone,

    Please show the organizational structure and Governing body of the first century Christians. As I see it, there is little or no structure of an organized "religion". What I see is emphasis on individuals.

    TR

    larc posted Fri, 29 Dec 2000 07:25:00 GMT(12/29/2000)

    Post 122 of 6533
    Joined 12/2/2000

    MDS,

    Who was Jehovah's organization from 150AD to 1850. During that 1700 years, did he have one organization or were there several along the way, and if so who were they?

    Also, what was the organization in the 100 years just before Christ was born?

    larc posted Fri, 29 Dec 2000 08:07:00 GMT(12/29/2000)

    Post 124 of 6533
    Joined 12/2/2000

    MDS,

    What is your opinion of the JW 144,000 theory? Could you keep your answer to a one paragraph conclusion and skip the proofs please.

    Sassenach posted Fri, 29 Dec 2000 10:09:00 GMT(12/29/2000)

    Post 7 of 78
    Joined 12/27/2000

    Thank you everyone for your responses.

    Larc,

    The discussion I had ran along the lines of the question you pose. I had said that if Jesus did not arrive in 1914 and subsequently did not choose the WTBTS as His earthly channel, then the 'wheat' was still mixed with the 'weeds'. To which I was informed that Jehovah has always had an organization in the past and therefore has to have an organization now.

    From what waiting says, this is not true. Thank you waiting. I'm going to ask these same questions next week.

    Frenchy posted Fri, 29 Dec 2000 13:02:00 GMT(12/29/2000)

    Post 838 of 1735
    Joined 3/27/2000

    waiting
    Good response to the excerpt. In the case of Abraham and his family there does not appear to be any formal arrangement for worship as the article implies. Nothing at all that would define Abraham’s worship as an organized religion. Job, for example, was certainly a man in whom God was pleased and Job belonged to no group or organization. And as was mentioned, Melchizedek broke all the rules in that respect also.
    It is true that a religion was formed when the Israelites were freed from Egypt and that God dealt with that nation. It’s true that the temple was in Jerusalem and that was the center of worship at that time for Jehovah. What we don’t know is how God viewed individuals that were not Jews, individuals geographically removed far from this place. So this cannot be used as a valid argument that no one outside the ‘organization’ has any chance of salvation.
    Again, you make a good point about first century Christianity in citing the example about the man who was performing miracles in Jesus’ name but was not following ‘the crowd’. (John 9: 49,50) It could be argued, however, that the Ethiopian eunuch was baptized and thus became a Christian and was part of that first century religion.
    I also agree with you that the WTBS is not necessarily patterned after first century Christianity. It may perhaps be a vague and unreasonable facsimile but certainly not a recognizable modern counterpart. That period of time you mention between the first century ‘organization’ and the one that appeared some two thousand years later is also an interesting factor. According to them there existed no true organization for pure worship.

    -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-

    Frenchy posted Fri, 29 Dec 2000 13:33:00 GMT(12/29/2000)

    Post 839 of 1735
    Joined 3/27/2000

    MDS has accused ‘most’ us here of basically being disciples of Ray Franz. He has also made the accusation that for ‘most of us,’ the Bible does not enter into our reasoning. Since I am in this group I feel compelled to say that I have never spoken to Ray nor have I read any of his work. My views may or may not coincide with Ray’s but since I have had no contact with the man, my ideas are not the ‘product of Ray’s thinking and ideas.’ I also take exception to MDS’ statement that ‘their viewpoints are non Bible-based’. My views are based on nothing BUT what I can understand from Scripture.

    Actually, Jehovah's Witnesses are a organization. They are taught this. They believe this. And they prove this many times over, ..

    No one has argued this point here. We are all very well aware that they are an organization.

    the teaching of God's People being "united," and functioning as an "organization," is truly, a Bible-based idea and teaching. It is truly that. The "Pharisaical" WTS leaders, will quickly point you to scriptures like 1 Cor. 1:10, 2 Cor. 13:11 and Rev. 7:9 and that points rings out clear. But remember Jesus' words, do as the "pharisees say, but not as they do," in secret. Jehovah is very displeased with these modernday "Pharisees" of our time.

    So although Jehovah is displeased with the leadership of the WTBS he is still insisting that people go there for salvation? Why? You openly disagree with the WTBS. Are you saying that they are the true religion? Are you saying that we should all be JW’s and ‘secretly’ do different than what we are taught? What happens when we get found out and get removed? Our salvation is lost? What is your recommendation?

    Actually, the ancient nation of "Israel," was one of the most highly "organized" cultures of their time.

    Are you discussing religion or cultures? What does an organized culture have to do with a religious organization? And as for the Greek lessons, are you a Greek scholar? Are you conversant with the Koine Greek of the Bible? Or are you just looking up the words in the dictionary?

    We are reminded of the fact that JWs as an organization, have and can still, accomplish much, working as a single unit. And thus, this has to be viewed by Jehovah God, yes, as a good thing before Him.

    How can they if the leadership is like the ancient Pharisees? And if they are approved by Jehovah why are you disagreeing with them? Is it only the leaders that are bad? How about the D.O.’s and C.O.’s and elders? Would they be considered Pharisaical as well?

    Such coordination, among God's People, brings about "peace," "unity" and much satisfaction and accomplishment. Just as 1 Cor. 14:33, 40 says: "For God is a God, not of disorder, but of Peace...But let all things take place decently and by arrangement."

    Again are you recommending that everyone become a JW? Are they truly (and exclusively) ‘God’s People’?
    What about the other religions? They are organized also. As organizations they are able to do much more than an individual. Is Jehovah using them as well? Why or why not? What is it that makes the WTBS God’s organization? What are their credentials?

    -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-

    STRUGGLE posted Fri, 29 Dec 2000 13:45:00 GMT(12/29/2000)

    Post 14 of 71
    Joined 12/26/2000

    Do you beleive in the Bible? When reading it, you discern for yourself which organize religion is to the best of their ability,
    following it. The Bible speaks about removing the wicked man, it speaks about learning war no more, it speaks about going out and preaching, it speaks about the dead being conscience of nothing at all....

    Read 1 John 5:20 and Matt. 7:21-23, we would be regconize by our fruitage. Got to go to work now.

    larc posted Fri, 29 Dec 2000 13:57:00 GMT(12/29/2000)

    Post 126 of 6533
    Joined 12/2/2000

    To all of you that go on and on and on,
    who was Jehovah's organization through the vast period of history that I mentioned?

      Close

      Confirm ...