Judicial Defense ?

It occurs to me that this forum has a vast resource of knowledge and experience. I'd like to suggest we put our heads together and find possible defenses for active witnesses facing a judicial committee. With Frenchy's intimate knowledge of committee rules and RR's huge library, along with everyone's individual experience; we we should be able to build a logical defense (assuming logic is a useful tool to JW's).
From my own research, I have put together a logical defense for an active JW who wishes to associate with a DA'd friend. I don't hold much hope that logic would help during a JC meeting, but here it is...

1) The Governing Body gives counsel and suggestions.

"The faithful and discreet slave" is used by Jehovah to
give us good counsel. (Matt. 24:45)
This slave class not only helps us to understand the
meaning of Scripture texts but also gives us valuable
counsel and suggestions, indicating how to apply Bible
principles so as to remain spiritually strong.
Counsel from the faithful slave comes to us through
Bible-based literature published by the Watch Tower Soci-
ety and through congregation meetings. (PAY ATTENTION
TO YOURSELVES
AND TO
ALL THE FLOCK)

2) “Jehovah’s perfect Organization is administered by imperfect men.” This has at times caused us to abandon or modify past practices. The abandonment of past practices indicates that today’s practices are subject to scrutiny.

“ *** jv 200 14 "They Are No Part of the World" ***
Practices That Have Been Abandoned
This Christmas celebration at Brooklyn Bethel in 1926 was their last. The Bible Students gradually came to appreciate that neither the origin of this holiday nor the practices associated with it honored God
For years, Bible Students wore a cross and crown as a badge of identification, and this symbol was on the front cover of the “Watch Tower” from 1891 to 1931. But in 1928 it was emphasized that not a decorative symbol but one’s activity as a witness showed he was a Christian. In 1936 it was pointed out that the evidence indicates that Christ died on a stake, not a two-beamed cross
In their “Daily Manna” book, Bible Students kept a list of birthdays. But after they quit celebrating Christmas and when they realized that birthday celebrations were giving undue honor to creatures (one reason that early Christians never celebrated birthdays), the Bible Students quit this practice too
For some 35 years, Pastor Russell thought that the Great Pyramid of Gizeh was God’s stone witness, corroborating Biblical time periods. (Isa. 19:19) But Jehovah’s Witnesses have abandoned the idea that an Egyptian pyramid has anything to do with true worship. (See “Watchtower” issues of November 15 and December 1, 1928)” (proclaimers book)

3) Laws, judicial decisions, and instructions from Jehovah can be transmitted
to ...Husbands, fathers, and mothers.

Laws, judicial decisions, and instructions from Jehovah
are transmitted through various levels of household (or-
ganizational ) management. (Eph. 1: l0, Ref. Bi., ftn. )
Jesus Christ, the King and High Priest. (Heb. 3 :1,6)
"The faithful and discreet slave" and its Governing Body
and traveling representatives. (Matt. 24:45-47; Acts 15:
23, 28, 29; 16:4)
Congregation elders. (Heb. 13 :17 )
Husbands, fathers, and mothers. (Prov. 1:8; Eph. 5:22,
23; 6:1, 4) (PAY ATTENTION
TO YOURSELVES
AND TO
ALL THE FLOCK)

4) After considerable prayer, Jehovah has transmitted the information that the following quotes are correct and should be my guiding principle when addressing my disassociated friends:

“We would not refuse to treat one as a brother because he did not believe the Society is the Lord's channel.
If others see it in a different way, that is their privilege. There should be full liberty of conscience. WT April 1, 1920, p. 100, 101. “

5) I have abandoned no principle in my decision.

“Principles are eternal, whereas rules may apply to limit-
ed times or conditions.”(PAY ATTENTION
TO YOURSELVES
AND TO
ALL THE FLOCK)

6) By ignoring a man-made rule, I am following Jehovah’s principles.

“Principles are settled guidelines based on fundamental
truths. (w57 9/1 p. 524; w52 7/1 p. 407)

Example of principles based on a fundamental truth:
Fundamental truth: Jehovah God is the Sovereign Lord
of heaven and earth. (Acts 4:24)
Principles based on this fundamental truth:
We owe Jehovah total obedience in everything.
(1 Sam. 15:22; Jer. 7:23)
When there is a conflict, we must obey God as
Ruler rather than men. (Acts 5:29)”(PAY ATTENTION
TO YOURSELVES
AND TO
ALL THE FLOCK)

Comments?

LOL. Do you really believe your JC will let you say all that? Maybe they will then they will disfellowship you for sure.

If you're called to a JC for reasons you present above, my advice is to run

Path

Without consideration to the merits of your reasoning, a frontal approach such as this would not be successful. It is not a matter of presenting your case and the Judicial Committee presenting theirs and an impartial jury ruling on the matter.

You would be asking a Judical Committee to overturn the policies, teaching, guidelines of the WTBS and, in effect, create new teaching.

A more subtle, yet much more effective approach would be to look for a loophole. Such exceptions are known to most veteran Witnesses.
Most of these involve necessary family dealings or contractual business arrangements. Relatives, either elderly or youthful, having severe financial, psychological or physical needs may be cared for and thus kept in contact, as long as there is no "spiritual" association.

Existing contractual arrangements for which there is no "out", must be honored.

Most elders are aware of these principles, and if it is tactfully explained that you are walking a tight line between respect for the judicial decision and shouldering other scriptural obligations, your low-profile contact may not be scrutinized.

TMS

TMS,
You said:"You would be asking a Judical Committee to overturn the policies, teaching, guidelines of the WTBS and, in effect, create new teaching."
I disagree. The message I get from the quotes listed is this:
1) The Governing Body gives COUNSEL and SUGGESTIONS.
2) Principles are more important than rules. “Principles are eternal, whereas rules may apply to limited times or conditions.”
3) The rules of the past have been abandoned, bringing into question the rules of the present.
4) In questioning these rules the final authority should be Jehovah, not the GB."When there is a conflict, we must obey God as Ruler rather than men.
5) Can Jehovah "talk" to a lowly publisher? Yes. "Laws, judicial decisions, and instructions from Jehovah can be transmitted to ...Husbands, fathers, and mothers."

I know this is just a mental exercise and the reality is very different. But maybe the WTBTS should write what they really mean:

1)The GB gives commands from God, not "counsel and suggestions".
2)Rules are just as important as principles.
3)The Governing Body is infallible, ignore our mistakes in the past. We have the TRUTH now (but we reserve the right to change it in the future).
4)We are not mere men, we are God's voice!
5)There is no way in hell Jehovah would talk to anyone not on the Governing Body.

Edited by - thinker on 20 December 2000 12:48:18

I agree...it's a good idea but being right does not neccessarily mean that you won't be DF'd. I've had this argument with a couple of elders - I say that the WotchTower org. has lied about their past and it is indesputable because it's in black and white, printed in their books and mags but they see this as irrelevant and the only thing that matters is that I am rejecting 'Jehovahs Organisation'. They do not play be fair rules and you are put in a no-win situation. The fact that you defend your beliefs automatically puts you in the wrong for just disagreeing with them.
I think the best defense is not to co-operate. Refuse to go to their JC meeting UNLESS you can take a legal representative (this sort of stuff is in Human Rights regulations here) and do not, however tempting, try to express your views unless you are confident that they will listen properly to them and consider them.
I have met both types of elders - some who dont listen and the reasonable ones who will.

I think if anyone wanted advice though who was going through this then we should be able to offer some help.

Hello to All. I've been skulking around this site for a couple of weeks and have decided to join in the conversation.

Thinker - I have found your postings to be most intriguing. I think you are a rare man to take such an interest in your spouses' religious background and how this has affected her and others.
I have known others in this situation and their former witness spouse responded by saying such as: "Get over it; "Stop whining about it."
And, to 'wife' I'm am so happy that you had enough of a spark left that after the mental abuse you endured you could reach out and seek a better life.
Good - no, GREAT for both of you.

Unfortunately, Thinker, I must agree with Path, TMS, and Simon that such an approach is very unlikely to work. At a judicial committee you are there to answer their questions, they are not their to answer yours. In fact such an approach would only confirm to them that you have rejected "Mother's milk"
and render them more righteous in their decision to disfellowship.

I've have listened to a dozen secretly recorded tapes of judicial committee meetings - all sad and bleak!...and
predictable.

However,some discussion of the points you raised might be of benefit to those contemplating leaving or help them to clarify their doubts.

Actually, we took Simon's path - avoid them at all costs. (I acknowledge that this is not always possible.) At any rate, it gave us many years of contact with those we loved as well as time to renew ourselves and clarify what we felt and believed. (I will post more details in "Hello, Hello...." shortly.)
The mandates of the TOWER did eventually catch up with us, and it looks as if this might be happening again in lieu of the recent 'oral'
utterances at the district assemblies.
But, I'm grateful we had some hiatus -
and Simon it's probably a good thing you are literally distancing yourself!

I've always thought that the following quote from Winston Churchill is most apt for the WTBS:

"Success is going from failure
to failure without losing
enthusiam."

Thinker,

I have really enjoyed your imput and the thoughfulness of your posts. However, on this issue, please take into account the real experiences from real people. As Emerson said, "What you do speaks so loudly, that I can not hear what you say" This applies to how actual people are treated by actual elders.

For many of us, the leaving is as difficult as it would be for an Indian to leave the reservation. You might read books about what that it is like, but the person who left can tell you what it is really like. However, one testimonial does not mean much, but you have read many stories here, and all of us could recount many more, as is attested to by Zazu.

We are not trying to be discouraging, rather we are trying to be realisticaly optimistic regarding what will most likely work.

Mr. Thinker:

Having served on Judicial Committees since 1965 and used in Appeal Committees since 1974, I have some feel for how your arguments would be received.

A person summoned to a judicial hearing has already been visited by an exploratory committee (usually two brothers) to determine if there is evidence that a disfellowshipping offence has occurred.

In the judicial hearing the committee will try to guage the wrongdoer's ATTITUDE toward the offence to determine if their is genuine repentance and thus a basis for mercy.

Anyone coming into a judicial hearing with an attempt to prove that the alleged offence is not really wrong is not showing genuine contrition.

The outcome is utterly predictable.

TMS

Hello TMS,

Nice to meet you. After reading all the responses on this thread - I'll stay with my conclusions - only reached from personal experience of myself and my family.

Be very careful going into the backroom with any elders. The cards are not in your favor from the start. The situation can work out for your benefit - but the burden is on the person. Attitude is paramount. Imo, justice is not. Many politics come into play - and aren't necessary understood or even seen by the publisher/child.

Btw, I wouldn't want to serve on a committee either. Don't think I would be any better at judging/counseling people than the average elder. Don't think I could sleep at night either.

If you haven't done so, please click on the intro-type thread "Hello? Hello? Hello?" Lots of new/old ones of us have posted there a little about ourselves. Would enjoy knowing a little about you also?

The court-appointed psychiatrist is not your friend.

waiting

Edited by - waiting on 20 December 2000 21:58:41

The WTS may have you by the short hairs if you were baptised in 1985 or after. At least in their minds. The emphasis is on adherence to an organization in the second set of questions.

pre 1985 baptismal questions:

(1) Have you repented of your sins and turned around, recognizing yourself before Jehovah God as a condemned sinner who needs salvation, and have you acknowledged to him that this salvation proceeds from him, the Father, through his SonJesus Christ?
(2) On the basis of this faith in God and in his provision for salvation, have you dedicated yourself unreservedly to God to do his will henceforth as he reveals it to you through Jesus Christ and through the Bible under the enlightening power of the holy spirit?

1985 and after questions:

(1)On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?
(2)Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with God’s spirit-directed organization?

TR

I would have to agree with the majority of the replies here....avoid them.

There is no need to play by their rules. If you do not believe that the WTBTS is the sole channel through which God works, then you do not need to follow their dictates.

Unless you absolutely need to make a declaration of your standing for your OWN benefit, not theirs, I would suggest a quiet departure from the life they dictate into your own life.

I must say, I have to agree with just about everything said on this board. I wish I had had access to this site, when I was going through all my trials. My husband is fully aware of the actuality (sp?) of what goes on in the back room with judicial meetings. I have informed him. He just keeps hoping to save others from the heartache of what I and many others have gone through. He is definitely aware of what is written and what actually happens aren't always the same. But wouldn't everyone agree his reasoning is sound. And using their own quotes. Interesting, if not effective.
Thinkers Wife

Your husband is a very kind person. His reasoning is sound, just that it will be wasted on a Judicial Committee. What one has to remember is, no matter how intelligent a Witness is, at some point to remain a Witness, he has abandonded sound reasoning.

Your husband's research is good, if only for himself and those who will care to reason on it. There's a time and place for everything, and a Judicial Committee is neither of those things.

Path

I will say one more thing as well. No matter how much information your husband gathers, no matter how hard he tries to understand, there will always be something lost until one has lived it.

There is a whole "mindset", a whole "pattern of thought" that JWs have. It takes years to develope and a lifetime to abandon. Its very difficult to explain and impossible to understand. You only know by having done the time.

Path

Hey Path,

As any jw will concur - true words you've spoken. Frenchy's brought this point out before. Only a long-time jw understands the mindset of another jw. A devout jw - only another understands the confines of his heart and outlook on life.

I've never pioneered, never wanted to. I don't understand why some of these people go through the troubles - for decades.

As for what goes on behind the locked committee doors? No one understands until they've gone through it. If the sinner was absolutely guilt-ridden and just wanted to confess and come home to Momma, they will not understand another who feels they have done no wrong by reading about their own history and talking about it, or an improper attitude, independent thinking, etc., etc.,

"Worldly" people think we can just walk away and get another religion more to our thinking guidelines. They don't understand the life/family loss that goes along with disfellowshipping or disassociation. They don't even understand the words. Some of us don't either.

waiting

Edited by - waiting on 21 December 2000 11:39:46

Everyone,
Thank you all for your replies. But, let me make my point perfectly clear. The WTBTS writes high and mighty words in print but their actions are harsh enough to earn the label "cult".
My imaginary "defense" was just one way of illustrating the hypocrisy of their words. Again, I never expected this to really work, I only wished to point out the duplicity.

I would agree that 'absence' is by far the best solution. I have not seen the inside of a kingdom hall in some eight years, and no one has ever bothered to contact us even though we have moved several times, my mother-in-law is still in the congergation and everyone knows her. So it wouldn't be hard for them to try and seek us out if they wanted to, I think that is the key word, they don't want too.

"People in glass houses, shouldn't throw stones"

This is not the only reason that the WTBTS has earned the label of "cult". Not too long ago, I read the BITE model set forth by Steve Hassan to determine the cult status of a group.

Even though I had been inactive for some time, I never would have classified the WTBTS as a cult. I just assumed that I had a problem in dealing with the inequities I had experienced.

After reading the BITE model with an open mind, I was quite horrified to realize that the WTBTS matched the criteria about 80% of the time. I had been the victim of a cult. It was a shock....but also a relief. This realization explained why I felt as I did and acted as I did after leaving.

Former JW's have a bond due to the similarity of experiences and mindset. Most of them (especially those who had been JW's for a good number of years) go through the same trauma after leaving. That's why support boards can serve such a great function. You can discuss thoughts and feelings with those who truly understand.