The Russell/Mason debate

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    NikL posted Mon, 19 Nov 2001 18:22:00 GMT(11/19/2001)

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    I have noticed there is some debate on this board about Russell and whether he was a mason or not. Some say he is a part of a conspiracy others say it is nonesence.
    I am, to be quite honest, not sure where I fit in this. I do find it interesting that Russell is buried under a pyramid in the Masonic section of a grave yard. Is this proof? Well, could you get your loved one buried in a masonic cemetary if they weren't a mason? Could you do it in the early part of the 20th century when Masons were more powerful?
    I have read some masonic literature from the 1800s (My grandfather was a 33rd degree member)and they mention Jehovah quite often. The whole system for interpreting the prophesies using pyramidology is masonic in nature. I think the evidence points to a masonic connection but I would love to hear evidence or reasoning as to why certain ones believe Russell was NOT a mason.

    MadApostate posted Mon, 19 Nov 2001 18:45:00 GMT(11/19/2001)

    Post 613 of 1065
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    I do find it interesting that Russell is buried under a pyramid in the Masonic section of a grave yard. Is this proof? Well, could you get your loved one buried in a masonic cemetary if they weren't a mason? Could you do it in the early part of the 20th century when Masons were more powerful?


    Please provide PROOF that:

    1. "Russell is buried under a pyramid."

    2. "... in the Masonic section of the graveyard."

    I have read some masonic literature from the 1800s (My grandfather was a 33rd degree member)and they mention Jehovah quite often.

    Hell, with that kind of evidence, Russell and the WTS must have connections with every religious and quasi-religious organization that ever mentioned or published the name "Jehovah".

    The whole system for interpreting the prophesies using pyramidology is masonic in nature.
    Based on your track record thus far, I would LOVE to see your PROOF of this "conclusion".

    I think the evidence points to a masonic connection but I would love to hear evidence or reasoning as to why certain ones believe Russell was NOT a mason.
    WHAT "EVIDENCE"?

    Fredhall posted Mon, 19 Nov 2001 19:57:00 GMT(11/19/2001)

    Post 1890 of 1972
    Joined 2/5/2001

    Russell was a Christian

    NikL posted Mon, 19 Nov 2001 19:58:00 GMT(11/19/2001)

    Post 79 of 177
    Joined 2/18/2001

    Hi Mad,
    Well, any evidence I speak of is obviously not first hand. I have never been to Pitsburgh nor have I seen the grave site. I am relying on accounts from others and in my little world I take everything with a grain of salt anyway. This includes my conclusions. If I come to some understanding and later find it is in error, I have the gift to abandon all of my previous erronious thoughts and go in the direction to which the newly aquired evidence or knowlege points.
    If you can give solid prrof that Russell was not
    a Mason I would love to see it.
    while you ask me for proof which I do not have, you have not provided proof for the viewpoint that you are so strong in putting forth, namely that Russell was not and never was a Mason.
    All I can say, it that in my reading of Masonic literature, there seems to be a simularity in many ways in believing that pyramids are somehow able to help break a code for telling the future and prophesy.
    Many of the symbols used in early Watchtower publications were Masonic in nature. You may argue this point but our arguments don't matter if neither of us has any definate proof. For whatever reasons you have come to the conclusion that there is no masonic connection. I on the other hand, feel there might be. If someone can give proof that there is no connection then I will gladly take your side on this issue.
    Does anybody have it?

    MadApostate posted Mon, 19 Nov 2001 20:31:00 GMT(11/19/2001)

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    NikL:

    You began this thread with several specific "factual" statements, which I have asked you to prove.

    Are you now trying to say that it is only your "opinion" that Russell is buried beneath a pyramid, and such is located in a Masonic graveyard?

    Whether you intend such statements to be "factual" or "opinion", PLEASE PROVIDE YOUR PROOF OR AT LEAST SOME EVIDENCE on which you base your opinion.

    I would also like to see some of this "evidence":

    All I can say, it that in my reading of Masonic literature, there seems to be a simularity in many ways in believing that pyramids are somehow able to help break a code for telling the future and prophesy.

    M LittleToe posted Mon, 19 Nov 2001 20:57:00 GMT(11/19/2001)

    Post 210 of 14978
    Joined 9/12/2001

    The Cross and Crown pin is a good start.
    It is a Masonic "Knight's Templar" device.
    This appears to be of American origin, however, according to my Scot's masonic friends.

    M chasson posted Mon, 19 Nov 2001 21:00:00 GMT(11/19/2001)

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    Hi NikL and littleToe

    Read that and we will talk after:

    http://www.chez.com/tjrecherches/freemason1.htm
    http://www.chez.com/tjrecherches/freemason2.htm
    http://www.multimania.com/xmd/Pyramide/debuga.htm

    Bye

    Charles

    NikL posted Mon, 19 Nov 2001 21:03:00 GMT(11/19/2001)

    Post 80 of 177
    Joined 2/18/2001

    Okay Mad,
    I don't have the time unfortunately to go in depth into the reasons that I have the "opinion" that Russell was a Mason. I can't proove a thing. Is that better? Make more sence? I am asking what your reasons are for your "opinion" as to why you think he was not. I really want to know, I don't want to argue or anything I am just curious.
    We form our opinions by what we see and our experience in life. What I might view as evidence or proof you may not. What are the things that lead you to your opinion? I am sure you have answered it already here somewhere but I am a hit or miss reader on this board and I miss a lot.

    anewperson posted Mon, 19 Nov 2001 21:04:00 GMT(11/19/2001)

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    Some of the early 1900s books have the winged sun-god Ra on the front cover, another Masonry symbol never used by Christians

    I'm not sure Russell is buried under the Pyramid which may be a monument marker but rather may be under the smaller tombstone that calls him, again I believe, the Second Laodicean Messenger.

    Someone wrote before that his dad Joseph was a Mason as was his dad-in-law but that he himself though Mason-influenced was not officially a Mason. However others say he was and that there is a book with a picture in it of him in Masonry garb including the Mason's apron.

    So, whether a member or not, he was influenced by Masons even as was the religion he founded. Masonry symbols or influenced have also been shown for Mormon, Unity and Christian Science.

    M chasson posted Mon, 19 Nov 2001 21:18:00 GMT(11/19/2001)

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    Hi anewperson,

    Could you read my three links before any other assertion ?

    Thanks and after that we could talk on concrete material OK ?

    Bye

    Charles

    M chasson posted Mon, 19 Nov 2001 21:22:00 GMT(11/19/2001)

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    the winged sun-god Ra

    Why only Ra ? Why not Mithra ? Why not Malaki 4:2 too ?
    Do you think that symbol are only for an unique purpose and meaning in the history of religion ?

    Bye

    Charles

    Free2Bme posted Mon, 19 Nov 2001 21:31:00 GMT(11/19/2001)

    Post 163 of 168
    Joined 5/16/2001

    Mad
    Did you read the thread?
    NikL asked for someone to offer proof that Russell was not a mason.
    That's all.
    I'd like to see some of that myself.

    Free

    zerubberballz posted Mon, 19 Nov 2001 21:36:00 GMT(11/19/2001)

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    Joined 11/12/2001

    Charles Taze Russell was a freemason. He said he was in a speach to a Masonic assembly. He repeatedly published that he was in the Watchtower magazine and his remains are buried in a Freemason grave per his request.

    Yes, sigh .. Russell was a freemason. The burden of proof rests with those saying otherwise. To me this has nothing to do with world conspiracies or a race of reptilian aliens invading Brooklyn.

    unclebruce

    M chasson posted Mon, 19 Nov 2001 21:38:00 GMT(11/19/2001)

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    Hi free and Zerru,

    Could you read the three links i provided in this thread ?

    Thanks

    Bye

    Charles

    M chasson posted Mon, 19 Nov 2001 21:41:00 GMT(11/19/2001)

    Post 235 of 861
    Joined 4/2/2001

    For free:

    The debate which divided and which still divides the small world of the former Jehovah's Witnesses on the French Internet, is about to know if the founder of the Jehovah's Witnesses, namely Charles Taze Russell was a mason. Having been an actor of this debate, it seemed to me convenient of summary my ideas in writing to take advantage of it the readers of this site.

    Russell took his ideas from the American second Adventism. One of the inspirers of Russell was called Henri Grew. The Watchtower society, always worried about criticisms which it undergoes, although it forbids her followers to listen them, recently dedicated an article on this person, as well as on Georges Storrs. Although as usual, it does not explain her sources, they siad in Page 24 of the french's Watchtower of October 15, 2000, that Henri Grew believe that " the Christians do not have to belong to a secret society, such as freemasonry ".After, the first's version of this Webpage, i found on a site the exact quotation, it was in fact a pamphlet explaining that a christian must noy be a freemason:

    http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/grew%20masonic.htm

    One can wonder so effectively Henri Grew did not influence Russell because from the first brochure, Russell classified the freemasonry in the organizations of the world which will not bring any help to the human beings at the time of the Big Distress preceding God's war.

    In the page 58 of its booklets Object and Manner pf our Lord’s Return, commenting On apocalypse 6 15, which said :

    15 And the kings of the earth, and the people of high rank, and the commanders, and the rich, and the strong, and every slave, and every free man hid in caves and in cliffs of mountains. 16 And ceaselessly they say to mountains and to cliffs: " Fall on us and hide us from the face of The one that sits on the throne and of the anger of the Lamb …
    He said :

    They will seek hiding, also, in such great rocks of worldly society as Free Masonry, Odd Fellowship, etc., but none of these shall be able to deliver them in the day of the Lord’s anger.”

    One sees that Russell, from 1877 , believe that freemasonry is a work of the "world" , that is the world remote from God and is not of use to anything in front of God.

    he takes it especially for a society of protection, or of mutual aid.

    As Mickaël Tussier's site on the page reveals it, on June 15, 1895, Russell has said in the Watchtower about the freemasonry :

    To a question of a reader who asks :

    DEAR BROTHER:--I would like to have your opinion on the subject of life insurance. They are organizing lodges all around here--United Workmen, Knights of Pythias, Red Men, Masons, Odd Fellows, etc. They are working it just about like sectarianism in the churches. Would like to see an article in the TOWER on the subject. Yours in the love of the truth, W. E. KILLAM. OUR REPLY TO THE QUERY.

    Russell answers :

    " We notice as well as the order of Freemasonry, if he is judged by his past history, has some secret object or schema, other than brotherhood and grant in the times of diseases or death. And as far as we can judge it, there is certain degree of profane worship or of mumeries connected to the rites of this order and of some the others, as far as members do not understand, but which, in a lot of case, serve for satisfying the tendency of the natural spirit, for the worship, and consequently prevents them from looking for God's worship in spirit and really - through Christ, the only authorized Intermediary and Grand Master.
    In this measure, such societies waste a precious time in madnesses, rites and ceremonies divested of sense, and by substituting the worship of their officers, and the use of words and symbols which have no sense for them, in the worship of God, of a way suited through Christ and according to the spiritual knowledge of the Spirit of a healthy spirit.
    In this measure, these societies are cruelly bad, without taking into account earnings or financial losses in connection with the membership to one of them "

    Russell criticizes austerely Freemasonry in this Watchtower. He didn't put it any more in the category of a simple brotherhood of mutual aid as he seemed to perceive it in 1877, and as his reader seemed to perceive it. But what was interesting in this message, is that Russell made a mistake in this statement about Freemasonry and that a former freemason pointed out him its errors in the Watchtower of the 1 er in August, 1895 :

    “A BROTHER, once very deep in Secretism, and who knows that the Editor has had no such experience, writes as follows:--

    DEAR BROTHER RUSSELL:--Your remarks under caption of Secret and Beneficial Societies in TOWER, of June 15, '95, seem rather funny to me. You hit the nail very fairly considering that you were hammering so much in the dark. I am glad that you defend the principle of protection as
    afforded by legitimate or old line companies, life, fire and accident. With you, however, I think their days are numbered. No human business was ever organized with broader and more philanthropic intentions than Insurance, and no business has been so abused and diverted from its real purposes. When Insurance fails (as it has failed) from the effect of selfishness, we can not hope that any human work will succeed. As to the secret societies, they use a ritual applicable to each different degree, which is fully as reasonable as that of many of the churches, and like those of the churches, it is usually of heathen origin. The worship of the Sun appears prominently in Masonry, and so it does in the service of the Catholic and Episcopal churches. The term "Worshipful," as used in masonry, is now practically obsolete, but was formerly and generally used as a term of respect. I
    occupied the station of "Worshipful Master" for three years, but I never received the adoration of my fellow mortals, and I certainly never gave it to others. Your suggestion, that it is done ignorantly, is a good suggestion, but it does not apply in that case. Perhaps no man in my state, during the twenty odd years I was a member of the fraternity, gave more careful study to the symbolism of Masonry, its moral teaching, and its jurisprudence.
    While masonry does not inculcate the worship of its officers, it does what is worse; for in its essence the symbolism used in the ceremonies are derived from devil worship. Although no longer unequally yoked with those unbelievers (2 Cor. 6:14-17), I do want to say for those who
    are still in the bondage that they have much excuse. Masonry consists very largely in a series of moral instructions, taught agreeably to ancient usage, by types, symbols and allegorical figures. It is a system, and a very beautiful system--as is very much of Satan's work--when seen from
    the worldly standpoint. Your fellow-worker in the best (not the worst) of bonds.”

    ***
    Another brother writes: - -
    the masonry is not the Christianity; and the one that is so deceived by thinking that it is , is led by this fact in a labyrinth of painful errors. I think that I know about what I speak about, I was during seven years 'a master' of a 'lodge', and I conferred on it one hundred degrees. The masonry does not clean sins, and does not save our soul of the death; and it is a grave question for a child of God to pass of time and of some money in an institution of the world. There is nothing pure which is ground, but purity comes down of at the top. "

    One can so note of what follows, that Russell did not understand big matter of the rites of the Freemasonry and that there were former masons becamed Bible's Students who teached him a little more on, an gave him a negative opinion, which he already had, from a priori inherited from his Adventism's background.

    In 1904, Russell speaked again about Freemasonry, in connection with the mutual aid Society, he disadvised another time his followers to be mason, by identifying the masonry to Babylon the Great, a false religion's system :
    Page 640,641 of the french's Volume VI of the Studies of Scriptures called " The New Creation "

    " This puts in front of us the quite complete problem of orders, societies, etc., and privileges which possesses New Creation face of these organizations. Is it suitable that new creatures take part in these societies?

    We answer that if associations of churches are purely religious and trade union movements of mutual aid are laic, generally ,, there are the others else who have religious aspects and laic aspects. As we understand, for example the Freemasons, Odd-Fellows, the Knights of Pythias, etc., carry out certain rites and certain ceremonies of religious character. Naturally we do not pursue any hostile campaign against the members of these different orders, no more than we make it against different sectarian religious systems. We put on the same foot all the systems which understand ceremonies and educations with religious character, etc. And we all consider them as parts of Babylon, whose certain parts are more clean and the others less clean, but that nevertheless are all full of confusion, error, contrary to the divine intention such as reveals it the organization of the primitive Church, and in the instructions that gave to them, by the word and by the example, the inspired Founder and his twelve apostles.

    We advise the New creation to have nothing to do with some of these societies, clubs, orders, churches with semi-religious character, but " go out from the middle of them, be separated and not touch what is impure " (2 Corn. 6:17) "

    In 1913, in a fearless speech, Russell compared the Christian Church with a secret society of which the Grand Master is Jesus Christ and members of this society not knowed each others because only Jesus knows them. It is one of the main argument of the upholders of Russell's membership in freemasonry. Russell declared himself freemason of this masonry, the biblical masonry. Throughout the speech, he tried to make analogy between the Church and a secret society, certainly to seduce some masons in the room.

    He made some faults in regard of the freemasonry in the text showing that he didn't know always enough about masonry as he had admitted it in the previous answer to a mail of an ex-mason reader.

    For example :

    " And so, if we speak to our Mason friends about the temple and about its meaning, and on the way to be a good Masons and about the Big Pyramid, which is the main emblems they use, "

    Regrettably, the pyramid is not the main masonic emblem, it is a urban legend which has its origin in the presence of the eye in the pyramid on the US Dollar and Russell repeats only this gossip.

    On the site very informed on the masonry, " masonicinfo ",

    http://www.masonicinfo.com/eye.htm

    the author reveals that symbol of " the pyramid is sometimes used as well (particularly in relation to the Scottish Rite degrees)" (and not in the Royal Arch as asserted by the upholders of Russell's masonry). The masonic author Brent S . Morris, quoted in this site declares about the pyramid :

    "A pyramid, whether incomplete or finished, however, has never been a Masonic symbol. It has no generally accepted symbolic meaning, except perhaps permanence or mystery. The combining of the eye of providence overlooking an unfinished pyramid is a uniquely American, not Masonic, icon, and must be interpreted as its designers intended. It has no Masonic context"

    We are very far from the main emblem of the freemasonry as assertes by Russell.

    At another place Russell declared :

    " although I was never Mason, I heard that the Masonry has something which illustrates very well everything this. "

    Russell asserted that he was not a freemasonry ( "terrestrial" we shall add), the upholders of the thesis of the membership of Russell's masonry explain that he belonged in fact to The Knight Templar which was in fact an paramasonic organization, and so not completely masonic which allowed him to say that it was not mason.

    Regrettably, Knight Templar are masons, it is necessary to be freemason to become a Knight Templar as reveals the site of this movement in the United States at the URL: http://www.knightstemplar.org/freqaq.html

    Under the intertitle " How to become a Knight Templar "

    "To petition a Commandery of Knights Templar or membership, you must first be a member of a Masonic Lodge and other pre-requisite bodies such as the Royal Arch Chapter and possibly a Council of Royal and Select Masters. (This depends on the state where you reside) To petition a Commandery one must profess a belief in the Christian Religion.
    One who does not know a Knight Templar or a Master Mason should contact the local Masonic Temple for information or The Grand Encampment of Knights Templar of the United States of America, 5097 N. Elston Avenue, Suite 101, Chicago, Illinois 60630-2460.”

    Russell could not be a Knight Templar, nor a freemason because for being a Knight Templar, it was necessary to be already a freemason.

    We have coveres the written's materiel of Russell about the freemasonry. Russell in his writings and speeches made regularly mistakes about freemasonry, even though on his last speech, he has demonstrated a better knowledge of the movement. He asserted not being mason and he has identified the masonry to a part of Babylon the Great of which it was necessary to deviate (Apocalypse 18 4) . One can not conclude that Russell was a freemason by his writings.

    Opposing views: http://www.microtec.net/mleblank/

    Explanations on the conspiracy's theory and Fritz Springmeier: http://www.multimania.com/xmd/

    M chasson posted Mon, 19 Nov 2001 21:43:00 GMT(11/19/2001)

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    Joined 4/2/2001

    For free:

    Russell: An unoticed Mason ?

    According to proponents of Russell’s membership in freemasonry, the Russells, father and son, would have been particularly prominent Masons, the proof being that Russell would have built up a para-Masonic organization in order to support the claimed purpose of
    freemasonry: a plot to destroy Christianity.

    In support of their thesis, however, these proponents cannot produce a single Masonic document proving the father and son’s Masonic membership. They take refuge behind their belief that because Masonic works are secretive, it is impossible to find anything at
    all. Therefore, they use indirect “proofs”: the use of famous Masonic symbols, the fact that the first Bible Students organized public meetings in Masonic temples, etc. ...

    There are numerous history books about Masonry which explain in detail the functioning of a Masonic hall, give the names of the main officers, even sometimes a list of all the members.

    Allegheny County [PA], where Russell lived and organized his movement until 1909, also has its own books dealing with the local history of its Masons. If Russell had been a prominent member of this lodge, one would think that he could have left some traces in the records of the community.

    The following book is about Allegheny’s Masonic Fund Society which oversaw the construction and maintenance of the city’s Masonic Temple:

    “The history of the Masonic Fund Society for the county of Allegheny from the year 1847 to 1923; with biographical sketches of deceased members of the Board of Trustees ...” / by Hiram Schock, Pittsburgh, PA : 1923

    You will find it on the net at this link http://digital.library.pitt.edu/cgi-bin/pitttext-idx.pl?notisid=00hc0513m&type=header

    Besides the construction of the various temples over the years (1911, 1845, 1889, 1914), it describes the daily managment of these temples and supplies the names of the various Masons in charge at the time.

    It can be immediately stated that at no time is any member of Russell’s family mentioned in the account. If the Russells, father and son, were Masons, they were only obscure members, not prominent masons in this city. Neither of these two men were considered
    worthy of being mentioned, not even a single line written about them.

    So let’s consider an often raised point:

    Because Russell gave speeches in Masonic Temples, it must be that he came to visit his Masonic brothers at the same time he came to deliver speeches to the public.

    In fact, the history of the Allegheny Temple paints a different picture: in an effort to cover the costs of maintaining and renovating their temples, Masons rented out a room in their temple for public meetings, whether it be religious groups (YMCA, Baptist), plays or concerts.

    On page 126 of the abovementioned document, for example, the author states:

    “It is interesting to note the continued popularity of the Auditorium, or ‘Concert Hall’ of the Masonic Hall during that era as a gathering place for the meetings of a variety of organizations.”

    On this same page, it is explained that the masons would rent the room daily to the local YMCA.

    In the course of the book, other groups are shown to have used the Masonic Temple as a place of meeting:

    Page 125: The Second Baptist Church rented the room for its religious meetings
    Page 133: concerts and charity meetings of the ladies of Trinity Episcopal Church
    Page 146: Here we learn that before the construction of the Opera house, the Masonic
    Temple was the most popular cultural venue for theater performances and public
    discourses.

    So here is the reason why Russell gave his speeches in this kind of place: the Masons
    rented their room to balance the books and pay for the overhead costs.

    The book also contains a small error made by Springmeier, amateur conspiracy author, which error’s importance will be explained below:

    There is no lodge number 223 in Pittsburgh, although there is one in Allegheny.

    At a French Springmeier-like site http://www.microtec.net/mleblank/occulte/demasquons.html) it says:

    “But then, did his father also belong to a lodge? In fact, his father was a master mason of Lodge No. 223 of Pittsburgh, on Jefferson Street, and of the Mizpah Lodge No. 288 in Allegheny. These lodges were in close proximity to his business. And it is likely that it was in one of these lodges that young Charles was “initiated” into that which we would like all to know.”

    The Mizpah Lodge seems to have existed by 1913. But in 1897 it was not called Mizpah, but rather Jefferson Lodge at least that’s what one must conclude as there existed a Lodge No. 288. By 1913, Russell had already left Allegheny, and we do not know when Russell’s father died. But if Russell or his father belonged to Lodge 288, it was not called Mizpah.

    Here is a complete listing of all the Masonic Lodges in 1897, which you can verify for yourself http://digital.library.pitt.edu/cgi-bin/pitt/viewitem.stable/00aee6163m/v0000/i000/0162a054.tif?main=http%3a%2f%2fdigital.library.pitt.edu%2fpittsburgh%2f%&cite=%2fcgi-bin#2fpitttext-idx.pl%3fnotisid%3d00aee6163m$26type3dheader&config=pitt&booknotis=00aee

    Why is the identification of Lodge 223 so important? Because of
    this ftp://ftp:rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/pa/allegheny/xmisc/lodge.txt

    This is the list of members of Lodge No. 223 of Allegheny in 1874. At this time, Russell’s father is still alive and is supposed to be an active mason in this same lodge as Mr. Leblanc’s site asserts. But there is no Russell on this list in 1874. And in 1874 young Mr.
    Russell does not seem to have been initiated.

    This is only a small look at what you can find in all the digitalized City of Pittsburgh archives http://digital.library.pitt.edu/pittsburgh/mainpage.html

    Try a search there for “Joseph Russell,” in two days I did not find anything. And for “Charles Taze Russell?” I haven’t found anything yet, but I’m still searching. Nevertheless by making your own searches, you will find an incalculable number of biographies of prominent people in Pittsburgh and even in all of Allegheny County. In every biography, you will find that the Masonic membership of the person is highlighted as well as the Lodge to which he belonged.

    If Russell was a Mason, he was not really recognized by his peers who forgot to mention it. In the same way, in the history of the city and the country, the Russells, father and son, did not stand out.

    So, Russell an unnoticed mason? Maybe not a mason at all.

    Thanks to Outnfree for the translation

    MadApostate posted Mon, 19 Nov 2001 22:16:00 GMT(11/19/2001)

    Post 615 of 1065
    Joined 7/24/2001

    Charles:

    Great work, as always! Seems like hardly a week goes by here that these jokers don't try and pull the same 'ol tired Illuminati/Masonry Bullshit.

    They start out making "factual statements", which are total horseshit. Then, when asked to PROVE their "facts", they try to change the thread around to: "Well, you can't prove that Russell wasn't a Mason," like it is incumbent on everyone else in the world to prove a negative, or else their fantasies are true.

    I can't figure out whether these people are ignorant, have mental problems, or are just inherently dishonest?

    M Kent posted Mon, 19 Nov 2001 22:21:00 GMT(11/19/2001)

    Post 1410 of 1403
    Joined 3/12/2001

    Thanks, chasson;

    I have "stolen" your pages, and published them on the Observer as well, with a proper link to the original, of course.

    It's starting to be a bit dull with all this conspiracy, don't you think?

    Yachyd Da

    Kent

    I need the new KM's as they come! Please send me scans!

    Daily News On The Watchtower and the Jehovah's Witnesses:
    http://watchtower.observer.org

    M chasson posted Mon, 19 Nov 2001 22:23:00 GMT(11/19/2001)

    Post 238 of 861
    Joined 4/2/2001

    Hi Mad,

    I can't figure out whether these people are ignorant, have mental problems, or are just inherently dishonest?
    For some ignorant, and we must talk to them, this is why i have made some research with one of my friend, we have on a french's net a terrible problem with this kind of theory.

    For others, I could resume by "You have loved the Babylon the great's theory now you are an ex-jw you could believe in the illuminati's theory. This is the same argument, even with Nimrod and all others..."

    Bye

    Charles

    M Kent posted Mon, 19 Nov 2001 22:24:00 GMT(11/19/2001)

    Post 1411 of 1403
    Joined 3/12/2001
    Charles Taze Russell was a freemason. He said he was in a speach to a Masonic assembly.

    Yeah, and he said the moon was made of green cheese as well! This is what Russell ACTUALLY said:

    "My understanding is, that all of these are bundles, and each bundle is getting tighter. Some of you know a great deal more about Freemasonry than I do, and I am not here to say anything against it, because I do not know anything to say, and I do not know as I would say it if I did know it. The Lord did not send me to preach against Masonry or Odd Fellowship, nor against Presbyterianism or Methodism. Our opportunity is to tell the truth, to preach the true gospel of Christ, and the Lord says that this message is to have its effects on the different hearts. Now, if you find yourself in any kind of a bundle, you know that is not the program so far as the wheat is concerned. The wheat is to be gathered into the garner; it is not to be put into bundles in the present life. The wheat is to be free. If you find yourself in any kind of a bundle, better get out of the bundle." —1908; Convention Question Meeting ("The Question Book" pg. 318)

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    "This brings before us the whole question of orders, societies, etc., and what privileges the New Creation has in connection with such organizations. Is it right for them to be members of these societies? We answer that while Church associations are purely religious, and labor and beneficial organizations in general are purely secular, there are still other orders which combine the religious and the secular features. As we understand the matter, for instance, the Free Masons, Odd Fellows, Knights of Pythias, etc., perform certain rites and ceremonies of a religious kind... We admonish the New Creation to have nothing whatever to do with any of these semi-religious societies, clubs, orders, churches; but to "Come out from amongst them, and be ye separate, and touch not the unclean thing." (`2 Cor. 6:17`)" —1904; "The New Creation", pp. 580-581

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    "We note also that the Order of Free Masons, if judged by its past history, has some secret object or scheme, more than fraternity and financial aid in time of sickness or death. And, so far as we can judge, there is a certain amount of worship or mummery connected with the rites of this order and some others, which the members do not comprehend, but which, in many cases, serves to satisfy the cravings of the natural mind for worship, and thus hinders it from seeking the worship of God in spirit and in truth—through Christ, the only appointed Mediator and Grand Master. In proportion as such societies consume valuable time in foolish, senseless rites and ceremonies, and in substituting the worship of their officers, and the use of words and symbols which have no meaning to them, for the worship of God, in his appointed way—through Christ, and according to knowledge and the spirit of a sound mind—in that proportion these societies are grievous evils, regardless of the financial gains or losses connected with membership in them." —1895; Zion's Watch Tower, June, 1895, pg. 143

    Yachyd Da

    Kent

    I need the new KM's as they come! Please send me scans!

    Daily News On The Watchtower and the Jehovah's Witnesses:
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