Dispelling Watchtower Myths of RC Beliefs

Over the last two years, as I moved back to the Catholic Church, I have been confronted with objections by several people regarding certain Catholic teachings. These concerns are almost always the same, and are founded in mythology created by the Watchtower Society, and some evangelical denominations. It is almost as though some ex-JWs unwittingly carry these myths with them and do not realize that they can drop these myths ... without requiring them to join anything.

The following are some of the most common issues that I wish to address:

Papal Infallibility: This is a most unfortunate issue that gets completely twisted from reality. The Pope is a fallible man. He is a sinner as we all are. He has to put faith in Jesus and live in cooperation with the Holy Spirit as any Christian. The best way to describe how he can then be infallible is this: Nearly all Christians, both Catholic, Orthodox, and non-Catholic accept the Bible as inspired of God, and hence inerrant or infallible. The Bible was written by fallible sinful men. St. Peter who denied Jesus with a curse wrote two NT books. God can and does use fallible men to do infallible things? The RCC has always held that the Holy Spirit protects the Church from inerrant teaching ... not necessarily inerrant conduct as evidenced by the seven congregations Jesus strongly counseled in the book of Revelation ... hence its "teachings" are considered without error. Since the Pope is the chief spokesman of the Church, then when he speaks on matters of "faith and morals" it cannot deviate from Church teaching, and cannot run against scripture. So, in this sense, just as the Apostles and other Bible writers wrote infallible words, the Pope can be and is used in an infallible way. Popes do not make willy-nilly rulings and tell people how to live their lives as the JW Governing Body does. And when Popes have said and done wrong things, the Catholic Church has been quite critical of them, and one can find this in Catholic history as well as secular history.

Hellfire: This doctrine is blown out of proportion by the JWs ... all the while the JWs use Armageddon and eternal death in the same scare tactic way that they condemn the Churches of Christendom. I was taught in my youth that Hell is eternal "separation" from God. It is expressed in terms of eternal torment because that has been Christian teachings from the beginning of the faith ... one cannot read hisotry and the early Christian writers and miss this teaching. Christians of all denominations are normally not led to be scared of a literal firey hell ... Hell does not dominate our thinking ... so to hold it up in the way JWs would, as some object of proof that one's faith is not valid, is not correct.

Praying to St. Mary, the Mother of Jesus, and praying to the Saints: This doctrine has been greatly maligned by non-Catholic denominations in the last couple of hundred years. The Watchtower is no exception. Catholics and Orthodox hold a long, nearly 2000-year, historic view that the Saints are in heaven, alive, and are watching over us. The Aposles Creed, a statement of faith dating back in various forms to the early 2nd century, and somewhat into the first century, holds that "... we believe in the communion of Saints, ..." which means that one can talk to a Saint just as one would talk to a close member of one's family or a close friend. Such prayer is not considered an act of worship. In fact, I can find no scripture that would limit our contact to only the Father, nor any that prohibits contact with the Angels or Saints. To a Catholic, such "prayer' is a mere form of communication to ask a Saint of special interest to pray for us, to help us in our walk with God. Perhaps you have asked someone in your family to pray for you, and look out for you? It is meant the same way to Catholics.

Note: Some will cite Catholic sources where the word 'worship' is used in conjunction with the Blessed Virgin Mary. This is a situation where the term 'worship' is confused with veneration, for no self-respecting Catholic or Orthodox would ever worship Mary as they would God.

Exclusively the Only True Church: Neither Rome nor Constantinople hold that the only true Christians are located within their walls. They both recognize that Christians are found everywhere. When one becomes a Catholic, one comes to develop a flavor for this word meaning 'universal' and that the Catholic faith accepts people as brothers and sisters who are in other denominations. What Rome and Constantinople do hold to is that they are the "full expressions" of the historic apostolic faith as it was handed down through centuries directly from the Apostles. With them come the seven Sacraments, and the fullness of the Church. It would be cruel, unloving, and judgmental to treat non-Catholic Christians as anything less than our bretheran.

There are other issues, but these have been most commonly asked ... and yes, the Church has made many mistakes and serious sins ... as we all have as individuals. She admits her errors and one can read her history that she and others have written to know this honest admission. The Christian faith is not for perfect sinless people ... rather it should be a spiritual hospital for the sick ... a place to recover and grow in love. If one is looking for a place where perfection is demanded and enforced, one only has to look as far as the Watchtower Society.

Jim Whitney

I had been puzzling out that very thing, lately. If I believe these have risen why could I not talk to them? How would talking to them be worship? Thanks for sharing that, Amazing.

I really appreciate the clarification of these points. I like to know what people REALLY believe.

Other religions actually believe and teach that witches worship the devil and drink blood and do sacrifices.

I've also heard degrogatory talk of Catholicism by protestants. They refuse to listen to the truth about people and their beliefs. They want to keep believing horrible things about "those not of our sort."

It still ticks me off that others will argue with me when I say that yes, JW's do believe in Jesus. They get all mad and everything.

Both admit they are imperfect sinners. Both claim that when acting in their official capacity, they are guided by God and protected by his spirit inasmuch as they teach according to his word.

Yet the JWs will bash the Church's claims of "infallibility" and "apostolic succesion," not realizing they subscribe to these very teachings themselves.

Hi Fadeout,

You made some very good points. There are some important differences. The GB allows for themselves to be sinners, but act like they never sin. They enforce their teachings on the rank and file as though they are teaching the Word of God, but then make changes over and over - back and forth until the heads of JWs nearly spin off. The rank and file are not permitted to question, debate, or challenge the GB, and they treat the GB as though they are sinless. The Watchtower makes no claims of Apostolic Succession ... they are among the Restorationists groups which claim that God let the Church die early on with apostasy, and then waited for nearly 18 centuries to employ Chuck Russell to restore all truth. From a credibility perspective ... well ... one can see the difference.

Whereas Catholics know the Pope can and does sin ... and Catholics do not all accept every teaching, though the Church would prefer that they do, there is no enforcement. One only has to explore critical literature of the Church and supportive literature, written by very faithful Catholics, to discover a wealth of profound information on various sides of many issues. Also, unlike the GB, the Catholic Church (and Orthodox too) do not change their doctrine and one can see a consistent level of teaching over the last two thousand years.

Hi Garybuss,

Good points about the excommunicating issue and community service. When I had my heart attack, running up a $75,000 bill, the Church (Catholic Charities through the Catholic Hospital) took care of me while I was still outside the Church ... and paid my entire bill, lock, stock, and barrell. The priest who visited me in intensive care never questioned my status as an ex-Catholic or ex-JW. He just wanted me to rest and not worry. It was 4 years later that I finally reconciled with the Church.  Thanks for the great points. 

Jim Whitney

They've only had 130 years so far. 130 years after Christ there was a good deal of doctrinal development still going on. They weren't conducting any Inquisitions or going on any Crusades. It took hundreds of years for them to consolidate their doctrines and rise to power.

The WTS would love to do the same. It's interesting that the WTS doctrine is primarily aimed specifically at tearing down RCC teachings.

Hmmm ... so when the pope 'screws up' they just pull out the old "he's an impect man" card. OK

Well, at least the Watchtower is kinder that they just send the masses to death and not torture. BTW, what about all those paintings of demons and pitchforks torturing unbelievers in a fiery pit? Poet license?

One cannot find one scriptures that claims when the saints died they go directly to heaven upon death, or that we are to have communion with them from beyond!

Hmmm ... didn't the current pope state that all protestant denominations aren't even Christian?

RR

RR,

That was not stated. When it comes to matters teaching on "faith and morals" neither the Church nor the Pope can err. When it comes to living a perfect life, we are all sinners and fall short of the glory of God, including the Pope.

Ahhhh ... kinder, yes ... with firey hail stones striking and buring people, fleash falling off their bodies, and eyes bursting out of their heads ... all at Watchtower Armageddon ... kinder .... mmmmmmm ... strange sense of kind.

The Bible clearly teaches that one is resurrected to heaven upon their death. Jesus promised as much to the man on the cross next to him ... and the Apostle Paul confirmed it as well ... and early Christian teaching held that view. And no we do not have to commune with them if we do not wish. But, the point of this post was to show how Catholics view such communication, and the fact that it is not as presented by many non-Catholics.

Not that I have ever heard. When visiting the USA he openly stated that non-Catholics are our Christian brothers and that we all all in this together.

No so. That is why I posted this thread to dispel such myths as you stated.

Jim Whitney

Funny this dispelling of watchtower myth also kind of flies in the face of the RCC's history.

Though I do agree the watchtower is anti-catholic to a hypocritcal fault.

Strangely enough, that's exactly what the Watchtower teaches!

But's at least it's over quickly, not forever and forever being tortured!

Yeah, I noticed all the scriptural proofs you presented!

Really? Better google it. Here's a excerpt"

"Pope Benedict XVI declared yesterday that Christian denominations other than his own were not true churches and their holy orders have no value. Protestant leaders immediately responded by saying the claims were offensive and would hurt efforts to promote ecumenism. ..." (source: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1863942/posts)

RR

RR,

Just taking one point. If you go on to read the excerpt quoting Benedict XVI:

The Catholic position is that a "church" requires a "bishop" to be able to offer a valid Eucharist. Since most Protestant groups do not have bishops (as well as do not have the same view as Catholic and Orthodox on the Eucharist), the Catholic Church refers to Protestant groups as "eeclesial communities." The Catholic Church does recognize the bishops of Eastern Orthodox and other Orthodox groups as "churches"--and these are not in communion with the Catholic Church, nor do these Orthodox Churches recognize the spiritual authority of the pope. 

The particular issue that you're referring in this google quote is not whether they are viewed as Christian or not (as you erroneously stated earlier in this thread) but whether they have apostolic succession. The Catholic Church emphatically teaches that all who believe in Jesus are Christian.

Catholicism recognizes all the Ancient Churches: Orthodox, Coptic, Assyrian as having apostolic succession--and thse are not in communion with the pope. All these non-Catholic groups are recognized as "churches" with valid bishops by the Catholic Church. However, Rome has not recognized Anglican bishops as valid and that's been a sticking point, to be sure. (That's a rather long discussion that I'll not go into here.) But, emphatically, the issue of "church" is a different issue than whether a group is considered Christian.

I wouldn't take anything out of THE FREEREPUBLIC without disinfecting my hands after to avoid the xenophobic, homophobic, ultra-patriotic bigotry that runs in that site.

INQ

What this means is that these other religious bodies are not churches in the proper sense, and that the Catholic Church does not consider their holy orders valid. Why? There is no apostolic succession, this is why. The Pope did NOT say that the members of these churches are not Christians and are not part of the mystical body of Christ with hope of everlasting life.

This is not new, this has always been the Catholic Church's position. True churches  were founded by the apostles, or their apostolic successors. Holy orders were granted by the apostles, and their apostolic successors. The Orthodox Churches, for example, are true Churches. There are many Catholic Churches, not just the Latin one. All these particular Churches were founded either by the Apostles or their named successors.

A CT Russell founding his own church in Pennsylvania is not a true Church in this sense of the word, he recieved no apostolic authority.

The Catholic Church is actually comprised of 23 individual Catholic Churches, all with their own traditions, liturgies, and regulations, and all in *complete* union with Rome. The Latin branch is so overwhelmingly large, however, that even most Catholics don't know that these other branches exist. They include:

The Western (Latin) Liturgical Tradition:
1) The Latin Catholic Church

The Alexandrian Liturgical Tradition:
2) The Coptic Catholic Church (patriarchate) - Egypt (1741)
3) The Ethiopian Catholic Church (metropolia) - Ethiopia, Eritrea (1846)

The Antiochian (Antiochene or West-Syrian) Liturgical Tradition:
4) Maronite Church (patriarchate) - Lebanon, Cyprus, Jordan, Israel, Palestine, Egypt, Syria, Argentina, Brazil, United States, Australia, Canada, Mexico (never separated, union re-affirmed 1182)
5) Syriac Catholic Church (patriarchate) - Lebanon, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Palestine, Egypt, Sudan, Syria, Turkey, United States and Canada, Venezuela (1781)
6) Syro-Malankara Catholic Church (major archiepiscopate) - India, United States (1930)

The Armenian Liturgical Tradition:
7) Armenian Catholic Church (patriarchate) - Lebanon, Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Turkey, Jordan, Palestine, Ukraine, France, Greece, Latin America, Argentina, Romania, United States, Canada, Eastern Europe (1742)

The Chaldean or East Syrian liturgical tradition:
8) Chaldean Catholic Church (patriarchate) - Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, Turkey, United States (1692)
9) Syro-Malabar Church (major archiepiscopate) - India, United States (at latest, 1599)

The Byzantine (Constantinopolitan) liturgical tradition:
10) Albanian Byzantine Catholic Church (apostolic administration - Albania (1628)
11) Belarusian Greek Catholic Church (no established hierarchy at present) - Belarus (1596)
12) Bulgarian Greek Catholic Church (apostolic exarchate) - Bulgaria (1861)
13) Byzantine Church of the Eparchy of Križevci (an eparchy and an apostolic exarchate) - Croatia, Serbia and Montenegro (1611)
14) Greek Byzantine Catholic Church (two apostolic exarchates) - Greece, Turkey (1829)
15) Hungarian Greek Catholic Church (an eparchy and an apostolic exarchate) - Hungary (1646)
16) Italo-Albanian Catholic Church (two eparchies and a territorial abbacy) - Italy (Never separated)
17) Macedonian Greek Catholic Church (an apostolic exarchate) - Republic of Macedonia (1918)
18) Melkite Greek Catholic Church (patriarchate) - Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Israel, Jerusalem, Brazil, United States, Canada, Mexico, Iraq, Egypt and Sudan, Kuwait, Australia, Venezuela, Argentina (1726)
19) Romanian Church United with Rome, Greek-Catholic (major archiepiscopate) - Romania, United States (1697)
20) Russian Byzantine Catholic Church: (two apostolic exarchates, at present with no published hierarchs) - Russia, China (1905); currently about 20 parishes and communities scattered around the world, including five in Russia itself, answering to bishops of other jurisdictions
21) Ruthenian Catholic Church (a sui juris metropolia, an eparchy, and an apostolic exarchate) - United States, Ukraine, Czech Republic (1646)
22) Slovak Greek Catholic Church (metropolia): Slovak Republic, Canada (1646)
23) Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (major archiepiscopate) - Ukraine, Poland, United States, Canada, Great Britain, Australia, Germany and Scandinavia, France, Brazil, Argentina (1595)

A family tree:

They already are

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/152479/1.ashx