Bookmark and Share

Viewed 677 times

A question about Nephilim

    whyizit posted Wed, 26 Dec 2007 17:58:00 GMT(12/26/2007)

    Post 453 of 495
    Joined 12/21/2005

    It seems like the Nephilim are a favorite subject of my JW friend. It's one of the first things she likes to bring up with people to show how much she "knows" about the Bible.

    Of course, many Christians also believe that the Nephilim are the result of a sexual union between fallen angels and humans. Many others believe that the Sons of God are followers of God (Adam's descendants), and the Sons of man are those who turned against God (Cain's descendants).

    I tend to believe they are giants, yes. That they are offspring of angels- X -humans, no. I really don't care which side of the fence anyone is on when it comes to that issue. There are probably exhaustive arguments for and against how the Nephilim came to be. People could probably split hairs on that all the day long. (And if that's what you want to do, then have at it.) But please answer this for me first!

    Here is what I don't understand. Do JWs teach that any of the Nephilim survived the flood? I'm quite certain JWs teach that angels were never allowed to "breed" among humans again after the flood. (Right?) Since Noah and his family were considered righteous enough to be on the ark, I am assuming they didn't have anything to do with the Nephilim. So it wouldn't make sense that anyone in his family would be married to one.

    The reason I ask, is because there were Nephilim mentioned in the Bible AFTER the flood (Numbers 13:33). (Yes, even in the NWT.)

    I just wondered how a JW explains this? I've thought about asking my friend, but then I figured I would get about 200 pages of WTS literature, and it would get stretched way off topic, etc.... You know the drill.

    Got any idea what kind of response I would get if I do decide to ask my JW buddy this question?

    M LtCmd.Lore posted Wed, 26 Dec 2007 18:11:00 GMT(12/26/2007)

    Post 959 of 1249
    Joined 4/5/2006

    From the 'Insight on the Scriptures' book, under the heading: "Giant".

    ***

    it-1p.929Giant***

    The faithless spies reported to the Israelites that in Canaan they "saw the Nephilim, the sons of Anak, who are from the Nephilim; so that we became in our own eyes like grasshoppers, and the same way we became in their eyes." (Nu 13:33) These men of extraordinary size, called the sons of Anak (probably meaning "Long-Necked [that is, of tall stature]"), were not actually Nephilim, as reported, but were only unusually tall men, for the Nephilim, the offspring of angels and women (Ge 6:4), perished in the Flood.

    In other words: "This doesn't fit our understanding of the scripture, so they must have been mistaken."

    Because, after all, who would know more about it. The people who where actually THERE at the time? Or the people who read about it thousands of years later?

    It's amazing how the Bible can say something extremely specific, and religious people just ignore it.

    Lore - W.W.S.D?

    VoidEater posted Wed, 26 Dec 2007 18:19:00 GMT(12/26/2007)

    Post 371 of 3065
    Joined 10/30/2007

    I think the official stance is that the "giants" of numbers are just large men, while the Nephilim of pre-flood days were the offspring of fallen angels (who apparently have external genitals) and human women. There may be "new light" on this, but this is what I was taught. The explanation? Well, obviously the giants of Numbers couldn't have been the same Nephilim, because those were all destroyed in the flood (ipso facto).

    Leolaia posted Wed, 26 Dec 2007 18:24:00 GMT(12/26/2007)

    Post 10696 of 16234
    Joined 9/1/2002

    Check out my post on the subject, I talk about how the tradition of the Nephilim (which definitely involved the union the divine beings and men, in both the OT and in early Jewish texts) was originally independent of the "Flood narrative" which intrudes in several ways in this tradition:

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/68224/1.ashx

    M Zico posted Wed, 26 Dec 2007 18:35:00 GMT(12/26/2007)

    Post 1091 of 1218
    Joined 4/24/2006

    In the Book of Enoch the angels got bored with humans and started sleeping with the animals:

    Enoch 7
    1 And all the others together with them took unto themselves wives, and each chose for himself one, and they began to go in unto them and to defile themselves with them, and they taught them charms
    2 and enchantments, and the cutting of roots, and made them acquainted with plants. And they
    3 became pregnant, and they bare great giants, whose height was three thousand ells: Who consumed
    4 all the acquisitions of men. And when men could no longer sustain them, the giants turned against
    5 them and devoured mankind. And they began to sin against birds, and beasts, and reptiles, and
    6 fish, and to devour one another's flesh, and drink the blood. Then the earth laid accusation against the lawless ones.

    I wonder what your JW friend would think of that text!

    M LtCmd.Lore posted Wed, 26 Dec 2007 18:36:00 GMT(12/26/2007)

    Post 961 of 1249
    Joined 4/5/2006

    Here's another one:

    ***

    it-2p.493Nephilim***

    A

    ReportIntendedtoTerrorize. The ten spies who brought back to the Israelites in the wilderness a false report on the land of Canaan declared: "All the people whom we saw in the midst of it are men of extraordinary size. And there we saw the Nephilim, the sons of Anak, who are from the Nephilim; so that we became in our own eyes like grasshoppers, and the same way we became in their eyes." No doubt there were some large men in Canaan, as other scriptures show, but never except in this "bad report," which was carefully couched in language designed to strike terror and cause panic among the Israelites, are they called Nephilim.

    Here are the scriptures in question:

    (Numbers

    13:30-33)30 Then Ca´leb tried to still the people toward Moses and went on to say: "Let us go up directly, and we are bound to take possession of it, because we can surely prevail over it." 31 But the men who went up with him said: "We are not able to go up against the people, because they are stronger than we are." 32 And they kept on bringing forth to the sons of Israel a bad report of the land that they had spied out, saying: "The land, which we passed through to spy it out, is a land that eats up its inhabitants; and all the people whom we saw in the midst of it are men of extraordinary size. 33 And there we saw the Neph´i·lim, the sons of A´nak, who are from the Neph´i·lim; so that we became in our own eyes like grasshoppers, and the same way we became in their eyes."

    And here is a scripture NOT quoted. It's true that they are not reffered to specifically as Nehpilim again. But they are called the 'sons of Anak':

    (Deuteronomy

    9:1-3)9 "Hear, O Israel, you are today crossing the Jordan to go in and dispossess nations greater and mightier than you, cities great and fortified to the heavens, 2 a people great and tall, the sons of An´a·kim, about whom you yourself have known and you yourself have heard it said, ‘Who can make a firm stand before the sons of A´nak?’ 3 And you well know today that Jehovah your God is crossing before you. A consuming fire he is. He will annihilate them, and he himself will subdue them before you; and you must dispossess them and destroy them speedily, just as Jehovah has spoken to you.

    So, if Anak is a person, then this would have the same meaning as the report from the spies. And this one came from Joshua.

    The WTS assertion that Anak, means 'long-necked' seems completely unfounded and arbitrary to me. According to this verse:

    (Joshua

    15:13)13 And to Ca´leb the son of Je·phun´neh he gave a share in the midst of the sons of Judah at the order of Jehovah to Joshua, namely, Kir´i·ath-ar´ba ([said Ar´ba being] the father of A´nak), that is to say, He´bron.

    A'nak definately seems to be a name, not a descriptor.

    As a side point: The Book of Enoch goes into more detail about the Nephilim. I believe that is where the WTS gets their idea that the nephilim were evil. Since that is not mentioned in Genesis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch

    Here is what Genesis says about them:

    (Genesis

    6:4) . . . The Neph´i·lim proved to be in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of the [true] God continued to have relations with the daughters of men and they bore sons to them, they were the mighty ones who were of old, the men of fame.

    They were mighty men of fame, but not bullies as the WTS says. The only way they would get THAT idea is from the book of Enoch, which they disregard as noncannonical.

    Lore - W.W.S.D?

    M Jim_TX posted Wed, 26 Dec 2007 18:38:00 GMT(12/26/2007)

    Post 1810 of 3256
    Joined 5/12/2002

    Not sure if this fits in with this fits in with this topic or not - but there were also giants in David's time - Goliath? There were also others. It was not just a 'genetic' abnormality either, as there was a whole race of giants mentioned.

    I am not sure if these were referred to as 'nephilim' though or not.

    Regards,

    Jim TX

    M startingover posted Wed, 26 Dec 2007 19:11:00 GMT(12/26/2007)

    Post 1099 of 1959
    Joined 12/13/2001

    You might be interested in this:

    http://www.stevequayle.com/books/gen.intro.html

    This is what I meant to post:

    http://www.stevequayle.com/Giants/index2.html

    M Gregor posted Wed, 26 Dec 2007 23:01:00 GMT(12/26/2007)

    Post 2144 of 5776
    Joined 12/12/2005

    Nephilim are still around today and most of them are in the NBA. But seriously, this is another Bible story that defies even the pretzel like reasoning of believers. Why were spirit creatures horny for flesh and blood women? Do spirit creatures have testosterone? Why? How did these low level fallen angels aquire the ability to create a human body, right down to the reproductive equipment ( with real sperm) to procreate with a real human? Makes as much sense as the flying spaghetti monster.

    Hortensia posted Wed, 26 Dec 2007 23:45:00 GMT(12/26/2007)

    Post 2566 of 7425
    Joined 12/9/2006

    weren't the Greek and Roman gods always doing the same thing - sex with human women? It's just an old theme - maybe they wanted an explanation for really tall people, and that made sense to them. Or maybe some women used the story to explain unexpected pregnancies? Who knows - but what really counts is that it is all fiction.

    R.Crusoe posted Wed, 26 Dec 2007 23:46:00 GMT(12/26/2007)

    Post 725 of 2597
    Joined 3/29/2007

    A sure sign for the ladies of anyone descended from the Nephs is large external organs - so you keep well away y'hear!

    VoidEater posted Thu, 27 Dec 2007 00:11:00 GMT(12/27/2007)

    Post 393 of 3065
    Joined 10/30/2007

    Wow, Leolaia! ;-)

    R.Crusoe posted Thu, 27 Dec 2007 00:29:00 GMT(12/27/2007)

    Post 727 of 2597
    Joined 3/29/2007

    Maybe in the Ancient forests Bible reading pygmies bumped into Saharan nomads who'd not had a woman all summer. That's my theory and I'm sticking to it!

    F AGuest posted Thu, 27 Dec 2007 02:16:00 GMT(12/27/2007)

    Post 2690 of 9474
    Joined 3/26/2001

    were not the "giants" spoken of in Genesis... or their descendants spoken of Numbers (may you all have peace!).

    Nephilim is the plural form for "Nephi," which is a “station” of spirit beings (i.e, cherub/cherubim; nephi/nephilim). All spirit beings are seraphs (plural, seraphim – “fiery, flying, flesh-eating” beings) in nature; however, spirit beings have different positions/stations (rank, jobs, etc.) in the spirit realm (cherubs are closest to the throne of God). Some spirit beings are “princes,” meaning, simply, they are appointed over principalities (territories), and NOT that they are sons of God (as the “king” – sons of kings being princes; that is a relation originating in the physical realm – it is not the case in the spirit realm).

    [SIDE NOTE: Satan, formerly a cherub (the highest of angelic “station” and he, because his position/station was directly next as to the Christ; in fact, his station was, along with that of Michael’s… “above” the “cover” – the propitiatory… or cover of the Ark [of the Covenant]… which “cover” or “propitiatory” was and is Christ) was given Eden (a spiritual territory co-existing within the physical realm in the location we know today as Persia/Iraq) as his "principality." As “the cherub that is covering,” his primary job, like Michael’s, was to “keep his face toward” the Cover/ Propitiatory. His secondary job was to watch over Eden… and the Ad-ham (earthling man) God had placed there. He failed in both. Michael, alone, “stood fast” [in] the Truth.]

    The Nephilim, spirit beings with another “station” in the spirit realm (and not so nice, either!), were "in the earth" prior to the flood. Unlike us, flesh with its blood, spirit beings (except those now restrained from doing so) are FREE (i.e., not bound by flesh with its blood and so not limited to the physical realm). As a result, they have had access to the physical realm from the time of the creation and can “go in and out” literally. (We are not free, yet, and so are "bound" by the “laws” of the physical realm – it is for this reason that we CANNOT literally "go in and out" of the spirit.) To go in and out, spirit beings must… with a few exceptions… put on and put off flesh (that is why the spirits that visited Abraham (prior to going to Lot) ate physical food - the physical body must be sustained by physical food and is subject to physical functions, such as sleep. It is why my Lord was able to show Thomas a body with flesh and bone; it is also why he was able to "transfigure" before Peter and his brothers, James and John).

    While it is true that, like the physical body, the spirit body must also eat and drink to live, it does not need to eat, drink as we do (what it eats and drinks is another subject). Nor is it subject to any of the other physical needs/limitations that we are (sleep, expel waste, pain, etc.). When these put on flesh, therefore, they “experienced” certain empirical sensations that their spirit bodies did experience, particularly with regard to sexual intercourse (excluding Jah, spirit beings do not procreate, and even He doesn’t do it as we do: in His case, there is no need for physical contact). When these put on physical bodies, those bodies were attracted to others like it: the daughters of men. Rather than overcoming their urges (of course, they should have - the daughters of men were not of their “kind”), however, they chose to stay in the flesh and give birth to their desires. They “forsook” the spirit realm for the physical one. As a result, they procreated a mutant being, half spirit/half human. (I realize there is the urge to say “So what?” Well, there is the assumption that such “daughters” wanted to be “taken.” They did not. Literally, they were raped, molested and abused by these spirit beings who put on flesh in order to do so.)

    It’s true that procreation of a half-breed (half spirit/half human) had occurred before: Adam was such a half-breed (as was my Lord when he resided in the flesh). Adam, therefore, could go in and out of the spirit realm, too (it is how he was created outside the Garden, yet could enter – flesh… with its blood… cannot enter the spirit realm; however, flesh… with GOD’S blood – holy spirit – can!). However, the SPIRIT that Adam possessed, and which occupied his flesh, came directly from the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH. That spirit, therefore, was “clean” (and remained clean, until Adam rebelled, resulting in an “unclean” spirit AND “unclean” body, which he passed on to his offspring). The Nephilim, however, procreated in rebellion (i.e., by taking something given to earthling man, not to them), which resulted in their offspring having “unclean” spirits, residing in flesh. The result? Beings that grew rather large (until their flesh could grow no more), and possessed “unclean” spirits (i.e., anger, hate, hypocrisy, etc.).

    These offspring wreaked havoc, while the Nephilim went about abusing both humans and animals (the flesh they can put on is not necessarily human – they can put on ANY “kind” of flesh), until JAH stepped in: by sending the flood, all flesh, including that which contained these “unclean” spirits, was destroyed. Only Noah, his household, and the animals JAH sent to him survived. The SPIRITS of these, however - the Nephilim, their offspring AND the humans - was NOT destroyed. Water can kill the flesh, but it cannot kill the spirit. The spirit does not die; it must be destroyed, which can only occur by fire. So, the SPIRITS of ALL of these were merely CONTAINED by the water (and still is, which is why Legion was sent into the swine, which, in turn, were sent into the sea), which is why my Lord was able to preach to these when he visited them during his trip to Hades (the world of the dead/the world of Death).

    Why did ALL flesh need to be destroyed? Shouldn’t it have only been the offspring and, perhaps, the Nephilim? Maybe. As spirit beings, however, these could put on any form of flesh it wished… human or animal. As a result, they could HIDE in the earth. By destroying all flesh, JAH ensured that none of them remained… in the flesh. The spirits of the humans who existed at that time were given an opportunity to live again… and a great many have taken advantage of that.

    The Borg cannot tell you of this because they don’t know of it. They, like many others, merely speculate. Had they only condescended to ASK… rather than leaning upon their own understanding, the truth would have been revealed to them.

    I, SA, have related it to you just as I have received it from my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, the Holy One of Israel, and Son and Christ of the Most Holy One of Israel, whose name is JAH of Armies.

    I bid you all peace.

    A slave of Christ,

    SA

    M grewupJWnoselfesteem78-95 posted Thu, 27 Dec 2007 02:48:00 GMT(12/27/2007)

    Post 59 of 117
    Joined 12/24/2007

    dear AGUEST very insightful.....yes i enjoyed reading your comments......

    i posted something similar yesterday- "why do JW say that fallen angels can no longer materialise"

    my question is what process do fallen angels take to take on the flesh of a selected animal/human? i am told by a 90 degree mason that in order for a fallen angel to take on fleah he must drink the blood of that animal or human being........take note of the book of enoch........

    i have been told that even today fallen angels can take on fleshly forms............

    let us not forget what the bible says: "so in the days of Noah so it shall be in the days of the coming of the son of man"

    i ask you what was happening in noah's day apart from the violence? and were did the violence originate ?

    Leolaia posted Thu, 27 Dec 2007 08:15:00 GMT(12/27/2007)

    Post 10697 of 16234
    Joined 9/1/2002

    Nephilim (notice the "l") is not the plural of "Nephi" (which afaik is not a Hebrew name); the root is npl.

    M davegod posted Thu, 27 Dec 2007 09:28:00 GMT(12/27/2007)

    Post 81 of 123
    Joined 6/3/2007
    Or maybe some women used the story to explain unexpected pregnancies? Who knows

    Now that sounds legitimate.

    M Jim_TX posted Thu, 27 Dec 2007 12:22:00 GMT(12/27/2007)

    Post 1811 of 3256
    Joined 5/12/2002

    All I can say is ... IF one believes this fable about the angels coming down to earth and mating with females...

    ... the gender of angels is 'male' - which goes along with the Jehovah's Witness religion (and anyone who believes this fable) being a male-dominated religion.

    Regards,

    Jim TX

    Leolaia posted Thu, 27 Dec 2007 15:21:00 GMT(12/27/2007)

    Post 10698 of 16234
    Joined 9/1/2002

    Hmmm, yaknow, I never heard of any female Nephilim in the traditions. Ohya, Gilgamesh, Hahya, Noah (who was mistaken as a Nephilim when he was born), they all were described as male. I guess the legend never thought of the possibility of angels and women giving birth to girl children.....wouldn't it be interesting for giant semi-divine superwomen to be among the mighty heroes of old?

    F AGuest posted Thu, 27 Dec 2007 21:49:00 GMT(12/27/2007)

    Post 2691 of 9474
    Joined 3/26/2001
    dear AGUEST ... i enjoyed reading your comments......

    The greatest of love and peace to you, dear GrewUp. I am glad you enjoyed what I shared; I cannot take the credit, however, because it truly is not mine. None of what I share is (excluding the “personal” comments I make from time to time). Good lordy, there is NO way I could know this stuff on my own!

    i posted something similar yesterday- "why do JW say that fallen angels can no longer materialize." My question is what process do fallen angels take to take on the flesh of a selected animal/human? i am told by a 90 degree mason that in order for a fallen angel to take on flesh he must drink the blood of that animal or human being........take note of the book of enoch........

    I have not heard such a thing from my Lord. What I have heard is that they simply “will” it. So long as they are not restricted, they can take on any “live” form… human, animal, plant. I will discuss further in the other post.

    i have been told that even today fallen angels can take on fleshly forms............

    That is correct, with regard to some of them…

    let us not forget what the bible says: "so in the days of Noah so it shall be in the days of the coming of the son of man" i ask you what was happening in noah's day apart from the violence? and were did the violence originate ?

    The “violence” that is spoken of is the abuse of flesh, both human and animal, that took place when the Nephilim put on flesh. Angels can materialize in three ways, which I will discuss in the other post (so as to stay on topic there).


    Dearest Jim-TX, may you have peace!

    I’d like to respond to your comment that “... the gender of angels is 'male' - which goes along with the Jehovah's Witness religion (and anyone who believes this fable) being a male-dominated religion,” if I may. Thank you!

    It is true that the dominant “gender” of spirit beings is “male” – however, they are neither male NOR female, but a composite of both – so that they are neither one OR the other… but actually a form of both. The reason that they are “male” when manifest is because that is the DOMINANT part of the spirit they possess (the female part of the spirit is a bit more passive, yielding).

    Like Adam, angels receive their spirit (life) directly from the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH, from whom both the male and female spirit originated. That is why Eve, a woman, came OUT of Adam (through the “house” of his spirit… a [rib] bone - the spirit… is IN the bones - which is why it was important that NONE of my Lord’s bones were broken). When God breathed life (spirit) into Adam, He breathed the spirit of both male and female (which is why Eve, a woman, was able to come out of Adam, a man – the spirit in Adam was “like the angels”)

    However, ALL life (excluding the Most Holy One Himself, but including His Son and Christ, my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH) came through a woman, the “free wife” of God, “Sarah” (Jerusalem Above), the spirit realm. Hence, all of us also have male and female in us; however, with US…flesh with IT'S blood... the flesh almost always dominates the spirit, so that whatever gender our FLESH holds prominent (and, yes, regardless of the aesthetic manifestation) is the gender we tend to relate to.

    I hope this helps, and I bid you both the greatest of peace!

    A slave of Christ,

    SA

      Close

      Confirm ...