Elders & Bankruptcy

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    krismalone posted Fri, 04 Mar 2011 07:10:00 GMT(3/4/2011)

    Post 1 of 1
    Joined 12/18/2010

    I found an interesting post about an elder who has a warrant for his arrest & filed for bankruptcy & owes over 30 creditors money.

    What is the Society's stand on that matter?

    http://en.allexperts.com/q/Jehovah-s-Witness-1617/2011/3/JW-elders-honesty.htm

    Aussie Oz posted Fri, 04 Mar 2011 09:52:00 GMT(3/4/2011)

    Post 1482 of 3755
    Joined 11/12/2009

    Ignore it and it will go away...

    oh and

    well thats just one person, you know we are not perfect, even elders can make errors of judgement and sometimes bankruptcy is the only way things can go.

    hows that?

    we had one high profile elder here who cost the whole city of JWs $ to rescue a kingdom hall from his highly illegal carryings on. He did get d/f but if he just took down a few private citizens i doubt he would have lost much more that his standing...

    oz

    Listener posted Fri, 04 Mar 2011 12:51:00 GMT(3/4/2011)

    Post 356 of 1683
    Joined 9/26/2010

    The Shepherd the Flock instructions addresses this issue in relation to Elders and MSs. Their actions are to be closely assessed to determine whether they should continue serving. This includes things like under what circumstances did they become bankrupt and their intent to remedy the problem.

    wannabefree posted Fri, 04 Mar 2011 13:00:00 GMT(3/4/2011)

    Post 1125 of 2828
    Joined 4/5/2010

    It probably depends on the attitude of the rest of the elders in the congregation, but the individual would most likely be removed as an elder.

    DesirousOfChange posted Fri, 04 Mar 2011 13:30:00 GMT(3/4/2011)

    Post 146 of 5151
    Joined 1/13/2011

    wannabefree said: but the individual would most likely be removed as an elder.

    I've only seen that if there was deliberate fraud. Especially in this economy, it would easily be ignored as no fault of the brother, something that can happen to anyone. The fact that the Israelites could mismanage things and end up selling themselves into slavery, but on the Jubilee they were freed and all family property restored is applied that once in a lifetime a person could get a bailout on a sad set of circumstances that left them destitute. Like most issues, continuing in an appointed position would depend on the subjective opinion of the rest of the good ole boys on the BOE. If you're one of the boys, they will put the "Jubilee" spin on it and all is well, if not, you're no longer irreprehensible.

    Wonder why the two elders in Grandview MO in the cited article would be meeting at the KH with the International House of Prayer members????

    M willyloman posted Fri, 04 Mar 2011 19:08:00 GMT(3/4/2011)

    Post 3723 of 3881
    Joined 6/19/2003

    We knew an elder whose business went belly up. He filed for bankruptcy without telling anyone, closed his business, told the "friends" that his business had gone broke so he had to go back to work, then took a job in another state and never revealed his financial situation to the elders or anyone else. His wife confided in a friend and it became fairly common knowledge through the gossip mill at the KH, but the BOE didn't seem concerned and a favorable letter of introduction was sent to his new congo. Last I heard, he continued to serve as an elder in his new congo.

    This was about 10 years ago. The WTS may have issued some new guidelines since then, or perhaps there were guidelines and the BOE ignored them.

    M elder-schmelder posted Fri, 04 Mar 2011 19:24:00 GMT(3/4/2011)

    Post 494 of 617
    Joined 6/18/2008

    The new elders book talks about this.

    elder-schmelder

    F blondie posted Sat, 05 Mar 2011 00:04:00 GMT(3/5/2011)

    Post 31710 of 37807
    Joined 5/28/2001

    *** w94 9/15 pp. 30-31 Questions From Readers ***

    In these difficult economic times, more and more individuals and companies are resorting to bankruptcy. Is it Scripturally proper for a Christian to file for bankruptcy?

    The answer to this question provides a fine illustration of how God’s Word offers us practical guidance on matters that may be distinctly modern. Many lands have laws regulating bankruptcy. The laws vary from country to country, and it is not for the Christian congregation to offer legal advice on this. But let us get an overview of the legal provision of bankruptcy.

    One reason why governments allow individuals and businesses to declare bankruptcy is that it offers those who lend money or extend credit (creditors) a measure of protection from people or businesses that borrow money or assume debts (debtors) but do not pay what they owe. For creditors it may seem that the only recourse is to appeal to the courts to have the debtor declared bankrupt so that the debtor’s assets could then be distributed as partial payment of the debt.

    Another way bankruptcy works is as a safety net for debtors who honestly cannot satisfy their creditors. The debtor may be permitted to file for bankruptcy, whereupon his creditors can take some of his assets. Still, the law may permit him to retain his home or certain minimal assets and then get on with life free of the continued threat of loss or seizure by his former creditors.

    It is evident, then, that these laws are intended to offer a degree of protection to both sides in financial or business transactions. Let us, though, note what helpful counsel the Bible offers.

    It would be hard for one to read the Bible from cover to cover without sensing that it does not encourage going into debt. We find such warnings as Proverbs 22:7: "The rich is the one that rules over those of little means, and the borrower is servant to the man doing the lending."

    Recall, too, Jesus’ illustration at Matthew 18:23-34 involving a slave who had a very large debt. "His master ordered him and his wife and his children and all the things he had to be sold," but then the master, a king, relented and showed mercy. When that slave later proved unmerciful, the king ordered him ‘delivered to the jailers, until he should pay back all that was owing.’ Obviously, the best course, the recommended course, is to avoid borrowing money.

    God’s servants in ancient Israel had business dealings, and sometimes borrowing and lending occurred. What did Jehovah instruct them to do? If a person wanted to borrow money to enter into or to expand a business, it was legal and normal for a Hebrew to charge interest. God urged his people, however, to be unselfish when lending to a needy Israelite; they were not to profit from an adverse situation by charging interest. (Exodus 22:25) Deuteronomy 15:7, 8 says: "In case some one of your brothers becomes poor . . . , you should generously open your hand to him and by all means lend him on pledge as much as he needs, which he is in want of."

    Similar kindness or consideration was reflected in the regulations stipulating that creditors could not seize the necessities of life from a debtor, such as the family’s grindstone or a garment needed to keep the person warm at night.—Deuteronomy 24:6, 10-13; Ezekiel 18:5-9.

    Of course, not all Jews accepted and applied the spirit of these loving laws from their great Judge and Statute-giver. (Isaiah 33:22) Some greedy Jews treated their brothers very harshly. Today, too, some creditors might be harsh and unreasonable in their demands, even toward a sincere Christian who at the moment was unable to make a payment because he experienced some unforeseen occurrence. (Ecclesiastes 9:11) By their inflexible, demanding pressure, the worldly creditors might force such a debtor into a situation where he felt he had to protect himself. How? In some cases the only thing creditors will recognize is the legal step of bankruptcy. So a Christian, who was not being greedy or negligent about his debts, might resort to filing for bankruptcy.

    We should be aware, though, of the other side of the matter. A Christian might be in debt because he simply did not use self-control in what or how much he spent or because he did not use reasonable foresight in his business decisions. Should he just be casual about the debt and quickly seek relief through bankruptcy, thus hurting others because of his poor judgment? The Bible does not endorse such fiscal irresponsibility. It urges the servant of God to let his yes mean yes. (Matthew 5:37) Recall, too, Jesus’ comments about counting the cost before starting to build a tower. (Luke 14:28-30) In line with that, a Christian should thoughtfully consider possible undesirable outcomes before he takes on a financial debt. Once he does assume a debt, he ought to sense his responsibility to repay individuals or companies that he owes money to. If many others perceived a Christian as irresponsible or untrustworthy, he might have sullied the good reputation that he had striven for and thus no longer have a fine testimony from outsiders.—1 Timothy 3:2, 7.

    Recall what Psalm 15:4 tells us about the sort of person Jehovah welcomes. We read: "He [the one God approves] has sworn to what is bad for himself, and yet he does not alter." Yes, God expects Christians to treat their creditors as they would want to be treated.—Matthew 7:12.

    In summary, then, the Bible does not rule out the possibility that in an extreme situation, a Christian may avail himself of the protection offered by Caesar’s bankruptcy laws. However, Christians should be exceptional as to honesty and reliability. Thus, they should be exemplary in their serious desire to meet their financial obligations.

    Morbidzbaby posted Mon, 07 Mar 2011 02:42:00 GMT(3/7/2011)

    Post 119 of 1644
    Joined 3/31/2009

    I know of a "brother" who imbezzled money from his company and skipped town for months, leaving behind his family. This was his SECOND time doing something like this. All he got was a public reproof and a welcome back with open arms. His extended family had many MANY elders in it. Gotta love JW justice.

    russell1879 posted Sat, 12 Mar 2011 05:26:00 GMT(3/12/2011)

    Post 2 of 2
    Joined 2/6/2008

    One major factor that the society cares about is "how many people know" and if they're "upset". If no one cares or complains to the society or the elders, then this dishonest elder might very well be protected by his fellow elders and allow him to continue serving. That article also mentions that this elder "Phil A. Rohrer" has a warrant for his arrest? Can you elaborate a little more on that? Does he have a pattern of not paying his debts?

    By receiving complaints from others, maybe even writing to the Kingdom Hall in the address listed about this matter, would definitely get the ball rolling for this elder to be removed from his responsabilities. He should deleted as he no longer qualifies for not having testimony from outsiders as the 1994 Sept 15 Watchtower says regarding bankruptcy.

    Amelia Ashton posted Sat, 12 Mar 2011 13:17:00 GMT(3/12/2011)

    Post 236 of 1921
    Joined 11/2/2010

    I discovered an elder and his wife had been running a business illegally for 6 years prior to selling it as a going concern.

    I had been working for the new owner for a year (illegally it transpires) and when the business came up for sale again I purchased it.

    It was only after I changed accountants and went to pay my quarterly taxes that I discovered the company did not have the requisite paperwork necessary for trading.

    I had 2 choices, carry on and hope I didn't get caught or legalise the company at a cost of at least €3000 which I didn't have.

    I sought advise from an elder and was told "It is very difficult to run a business legally in Spain"! So many qustions arose in my mind from that statement I can tell you. Did he know? Was his business illegal too?

    Having read through the "secret elders manual" I now understand his response.

    However, the original owner of the business is still an elder in fine standing in his new congregation and I am posting here!!!!

    Violia posted Sat, 12 Mar 2011 14:25:00 GMT(3/12/2011)

    Post 1193 of 3557
    Joined 4/11/2009

    I would need to know a lot more than this to assume he was a crook. Many folks who are not criminals , just people in over their head, are forced to file bankruptcy. It is not a crime.

    F blondie posted Sat, 12 Mar 2011 16:09:00 GMT(3/12/2011)

    Post 31740 of 37807
    Joined 5/28/2001

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/43484/1/2-Former-Elders-in-Scam

    http://www.watchtowerinformationservice.org/watchtower-money/jehovahs-witness-church-elder-ordered-to-repay-47-million-to-fleeced-flock/

    labmik posted Wed, 23 Mar 2011 02:43:00 GMT(3/23/2011)

    Post 1 of 5
    Joined 2/28/2011

    Well for whats it worth - any elder who went bankrupt would at the very least have a cloud over his head and until proven otherwise ( guilty until proven innocent rule ) might have to stand down.

    But let's be reasonable here - many businesses in Australia have recently gone under because of massive natural disaters wiping out whole towns and shopping centres. If one was to loose it all in such an event and still have no way of paying out a loan to the bank, nor claim their insurance cover - then the business owner would have no option but to file for bankruptcy.

    You can't blame God or Satan for such disaster - its a sign of the times.

    So to be fair to the elder in such a situation - he should not loose his position. It's a very different matter though If illegal activity was going on.

    I went bankrupt about 6 years ago, after about 12 months of running a retail store. The owner was a member of the Christian Buisnessman's Association. He had been fiddling the books and the Buisness Activity Statemnets for the tax office, paying staff cash in hand, etc. I paid a quarter of a million for the buisness out of my own money - as I could not get a loan because of previous unemployment. I inherited the money from my parents who died.

    In so doing, I also had a non-witness manager whom I kept on, which knew the business history well, and latter found him stealing from the business unbeknowns to me at the time. Many of the problems of the buisness were not obvious for many month after purchasing it and by that time it was too late to rectify. Also many of the original owners customer base were his church members which went with him after he sold me the business.

    I had the money to avoid bankruptcy and pay out my creditors but it was tied up in superannuation I could not touch for at least 15 years - so I was forced into a corner, despite trying to trade out of debt. In my case, I got screwed and cannot do anything legally to get compensation. If I was an Elder in such a situation I would not remove him, yet if the previous owner was an Elder he should be disfellowshipped.

    That's my 2 cents worth. To the average JW I would be bankrupt because I left Jehovah and he removed his holy spirit out of my life and so I deserve what I get.

    To the original owner - Jesus helped him sell the business and as I was to him a non-christian, I would be of satan's seed and worth ripping off.

    Either way - your dammed if you do, and dammed if you dont !

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